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DeepSeek-R1: Incentivizing Reasoning Capability in LLMs via RL

arxiv.org

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Re: DeepSeek-R1: Incentivizing Reasoning Capability in LLMs via RL

#511

Post by [deleted] »

steelframe wrote: post #418
neom wrote: post #268

I've been using https://chat.deepseek.com/ over My ChatGPT Pro subscription because being able to read the thinking in the way they present it is just much much easier to "debug" - also I can see when it's bending it's reply to something, often softening it or pandering to me - I can just say "I saw in your thinking you should give this type of reply, don't do that". If it stays free and gets better that's going to b…

I tried signing up, but it gave me some bullshit "this email domain isn't supported in your region." I guess they insist on a GMail account or something? Regardless I don't even trust US-based LLM products to protect my privacy, let alone China-based. Remember kids: If it's free, you're the product. I'll give it a while longer before I can run something competitive on my own hardware. I don't mind giving it a few yea…

[deleted]

Re: DeepSeek-R1: Incentivizing Reasoning Capability in LLMs via RL

#512

Post by bboygravity »

resters wrote: post #500

For those who haven't realized it yet, Deepseek-R1 is better than claude 3.5 and better than OpenAI o1-pro, better than Gemini. It is simply smarter -- a lot less stupid, more careful, more astute, more aware, more meta-aware, etc. We know that Anthropic and OpenAI and Meta are panicking. They should be. The bar is a lot higher now. The justification for keeping the sauce secret just seems a lot more absurd. None of…

I must be missing something, but I tried Deepseek R1 via Kagi assistant and IMO it doesn't even come close to Claude?

I don't get the hype at all?

What am I doing wrong?

And of course if you ask it anything related to the CCP it will suddenly turn into a Pinokkio simulator.

Re: DeepSeek-R1: Incentivizing Reasoning Capability in LLMs via RL

#513

Post by logicchains »

llm_trw wrote: post #510
resters wrote: post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should be. I think AMD has left a lot on the table with respect to competing in the space (probably to the point of executive negligence) and the new US laws will help create several new Chinese competitors. NVIDIA probably has a bit of time left as the market leader, but it's really due mostly to luck.

As we have seen here it won't be a Western company that saves us from the dominant monopoly. Xi Jinping, you're our only hope.

If China really released a GPU competitive with the current generation of nvidia you can bet it'd be banned in the US like BYD and DJI.

Re: DeepSeek-R1: Incentivizing Reasoning Capability in LLMs via RL

#514

Post by resters »

loveparade wrote: post #505
resters wrote: post #500

For those who haven't realized it yet, Deepseek-R1 is better than claude 3.5 and better than OpenAI o1-pro, better than Gemini. It is simply smarter -- a lot less stupid, more careful, more astute, more aware, more meta-aware, etc. We know that Anthropic and OpenAI and Meta are panicking. They should be. The bar is a lot higher now. The justification for keeping the sauce secret just seems a lot more absurd. None of…

There has never been much secret sauce in the model itself. The secret sauce or competitive advantage has always been in the engineering that goes into the data collection, model training infrastructure, and lifecycle/debugging management of model training. As well as in the access to GPUs. Yeah, with Deepseek the barrier to entry has become significantly lower now. That's good, and hopefully more competition will co…

I don't disagree, but the important point is that Deepseek showed that it's not just about CapEx, which is what the US firms were/are lining up to battle with.

In my opinion there is something qualitatively better about Deepseek in spite of its small size, even compared to o1-pro, that suggests a door has been opened.

GPUs are needed to rapidly iterate on ideas, train, evaluate, etc., but Deepseek has shown us that we are not yet in the phase where hardware CapEx guarantees victory. Imagine if Deeepseek hadn't been open sourced!

Re: DeepSeek-R1: Incentivizing Reasoning Capability in LLMs via RL

#515

Post by tokioyoyo »

creato wrote: post #493
tokioyoyo wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my casual read, right now everyone is on reputation tarnishing tirade, like spamming “Chinese stealing data! Definitely lying about everything! API can’t be this cheap!”. If that doesn’t go through well, I’m assuming lobbyism will start for import controls, which is very stupid. I have no idea how they can recover from it, if DeepSeek’s product is what they’re advertising.

Funny, everything I see (not actively looking for DeepSeek related content) is absolutely raving about it and talking about it destroying OpenAI (random YouTube thumbnails, most comments in this thread, even CNBC headlines). If DeepSeek's claims are accurate, then they themselves will be obsolete within a year, because the cost to develop models like this has dropped dramatically. There are going to be a lot of teams…

Basically engineers are rejoicing, some VC connected C-levels are saying “nah, CCP helped them”. It’ll be fun if DS team gets proven right. Everyone will be back to the drawing board. It’s making a bit of news within China as well, as Baidu, Tencent, Bytedance are also spending a lotta money for AI training.

Re: DeepSeek-R1: Incentivizing Reasoning Capability in LLMs via RL

#516

Post by resters »

llm_trw wrote: post #509
loveparade wrote: post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There has never been much secret sauce in the model itself. The secret sauce or competitive advantage has always been in the engineering that goes into the data collection, model training infrastructure, and lifecycle/debugging management of model training. As well as in the access to GPUs. Yeah, with Deepseek the barrier to entry has become significantly lower now. That's good, and hopefully more competition will co…

The word you're looking for is copyright enfrignment. That's the secret sause that every good model uses.

True, and likely lots of other data that should not have been used to train a model.

It is at this point hard to imagine a model that is good at reasoning that doesn't also have vast implicit "knowledge".

Re: DeepSeek-R1: Incentivizing Reasoning Capability in LLMs via RL

#517

Post by bboygravity »

UltraSane wrote: post #270
neom wrote: post #268

I've been using https://chat.deepseek.com/ over My ChatGPT Pro subscription because being able to read the thinking in the way they present it is just much much easier to "debug" - also I can see when it's bending it's reply to something, often softening it or pandering to me - I can just say "I saw in your thinking you should give this type of reply, don't do that". If it stays free and gets better that's going to b…

If you ask it about the Tienanmen Square Massacre its "thought process" is very interesting.

[I typed something dumb while half asleep]

Re: DeepSeek-R1: Incentivizing Reasoning Capability in LLMs via RL

#518

Post by resters »

bboygravity wrote: post #512
resters wrote: post #500

For those who haven't realized it yet, Deepseek-R1 is better than claude 3.5 and better than OpenAI o1-pro, better than Gemini. It is simply smarter -- a lot less stupid, more careful, more astute, more aware, more meta-aware, etc. We know that Anthropic and OpenAI and Meta are panicking. They should be. The bar is a lot higher now. The justification for keeping the sauce secret just seems a lot more absurd. None of…

I must be missing something, but I tried Deepseek R1 via Kagi assistant and IMO it doesn't even come close to Claude? I don't get the hype at all? What am I doing wrong? And of course if you ask it anything related to the CCP it will suddenly turn into a Pinokkio simulator.

I haven't tried kagi assistant, but try it at deepseek.com.

All models at this point have various politically motivated filters. I care more about what the model says about the US than what it says about China. Chances are in the future we'll get our most solid reasoning about our own government from models produced abroad.

Re: DeepSeek-R1: Incentivizing Reasoning Capability in LLMs via RL

#519

Post by govideo »

resters wrote: post #514
loveparade wrote: post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There has never been much secret sauce in the model itself. The secret sauce or competitive advantage has always been in the engineering that goes into the data collection, model training infrastructure, and lifecycle/debugging management of model training. As well as in the access to GPUs. Yeah, with Deepseek the barrier to entry has become significantly lower now. That's good, and hopefully more competition will co…

I don't disagree, but the important point is that Deepseek showed that it's not just about CapEx, which is what the US firms were/are lining up to battle with. In my opinion there is something qualitatively better about Deepseek in spite of its small size, even compared to o1-pro, that suggests a door has been opened. GPUs are needed to rapidly iterate on ideas, train, evaluate, etc., but Deepseek has shown us that w…

Let me qualify your statement... CapEx is what EXISTING US firms were/are lining up to battle with.

With R1 as inspiration/imperative, many new US startups will emerge who will be very strong. Can you feel a bunch of talent in limbo startups pivoting/re-energized now?

Re: DeepSeek-R1: Incentivizing Reasoning Capability in LLMs via RL

#520

Post by silverliver »

llm_trw wrote: post #509
loveparade wrote: post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There has never been much secret sauce in the model itself. The secret sauce or competitive advantage has always been in the engineering that goes into the data collection, model training infrastructure, and lifecycle/debugging management of model training. As well as in the access to GPUs. Yeah, with Deepseek the barrier to entry has become significantly lower now. That's good, and hopefully more competition will co…

The word you're looking for is copyright enfrignment. That's the secret sause that every good model uses.

Humanity keeps running into copyright issues with every major leap in IT technology (photocopiers, tape cassettes, personal computers, internet, and now AI). I think it's about time for humanity to rethink their take on the unnatural restriction of information.

I personally hope that countries recognize copyright and patents for what they really are and abolish them. Countries that refuse to do so can play catch up.

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