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Why Northern England is poor

tomforth.co.uk

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Re: Why Northern England is poor

#81
Sort of an aside from the article, but I never feel like these geographic averages translate well to densely populated countries like England.

The North, like all parts of the country, has pockets of extreme affluence near areas of relative poverty, with a lot of middle income households scattered about the place too.

Talking to some southerners you’d think the whole of the North was a dump, and I worry people write off a truly beautiful part of the UK because of this misconception.

Re: Why Northern England is poor

#82
post #20
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The process is quite simple and fairly obvious. Government policy is the bedrock of all economic development. Government officials will always have the most knowledge about the capital, so all policy is tailored to it. It's no surprise that they don't make policies that benefit the North given that they don't live there.

What policy would benefit the north, without (even further) subsidising it? If we could invest £10Bn and get £20Bn back for the economy with our money back over time then not a single politician would turn that down, there's actually been a load of support over the past ~5+ years for "levelling up" (AKA investment in the north) but we've not invested much because the returns are abysmal. Meanwhile there's a whole sta…

Historically, the UK was run for the benefit of an elite and the regions they lived in, but they discovered that that ran counter to their own interests. They reversed the economic parts of that in Ireland in the 1890s ("Killing Home Rule with Kindness"), and they did so in Northern England after the Wall Street Crash. For example, for part of the 20th century, companies were banned from expanding anywhere outside of deprived regions which caused industrial havoc in the South without providing much long-term benefit to the North. The root problem isn't that government didn't try extreme measure, it's that those measures failed at massive cost, so proposed ones are now subject to much more rigorous scrutiny.

Power in the UK is highly centralised in London, but that's not necessarily bad for regional economic development, e.g. the office ban mentioned above would not have been agreed to by southern devolved regions and the redevelopment of the former East Germany was driven by Bonn (former West Germany's capital city). Competition in government also isn't necessarily good for regional development and the corn laws and free trade that the author credits to Northern England's influence caused another famine in Ireland in 1879. It's also worth noting the North East England referendum of 2004, when London's project of devolving power to the English regions was blocked because Northern English voters overwhelmingly didn't want it.

British manufacturing suffered an unusually steep collapse relative to other western countries in the late 20th century that hit Northern England particularly hard, while the benefits of the slightly later financial services boom were inevitably focused on the country's financial centre in the South. The manufacturing collapse was partially driven by government policies, but not in the way generally thought - for decades, pre-Thatcher governments had been taking fairly regular extreme measures in response to various crises (balance of payments deficits, unbalanced regional development, oil shortages, strikes, etc.), that made life much harder for businesses. But the collapse was mainly driven by the fact that Britain in the second half of the 20th century was mind-bogglingly bad at manufacturing. I suspect that the failure of that entire section of the British economy would be a better starting point for an analysis of what went wrong in Northern England.

Re: Why Northern England is poor

#83
post #46
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To a certain extent, would making the productive parts of manchester, even just 2X more productive not fix this over time in the same way that it has in London? If you look back even say 30 years ago in London, you'd of said the same thing about places like Hackney, as you do now about Tameside. Today it houses some of the most desired and valuable real estate not only in London, and by extension the UK, but in the w…

> 30 years ago in London, you'd of said the same thing about places like Hackney...[and] today it houses some of the most desired and valuable real estate are you saying that gentrification of Hackney did not simply entail wealthier people moving in and displacing the local population, but rather soaring incomes for the people who lived there?

A "gentrified" community will involve higher incomes for those non-tradable services that have to be provided locally and can't simply be outsourced to somewhere else. So it's both.

(This is in addition to the high productivity that's driving the gentrification in the first place, which will often result in increased opportunity in that very sector - but that's not always very relevant, especially in the short term.)

Re: Why Northern England is poor

#84
post #3

We also shifted largely into a service based economy, shutdown a lot of mines and mills (for better or for worse) which were primarily more north based. More than 2/3rds of my graduating physics class went straight into banking, as there was no relevant industry to pick them up... and as someone with several postdoctoral degrees, yet no house or meaningful assets... who could blame them for going into banking in this…

> More than 2/3rds of my graduating physics class went straight into banking This is why I advise people to never study physical sciences or non-software engineering. There just aren’t many jobs for it in the UK. And even fewer that pay well.

The usefulness of that depends on whether you think academic higher education is vocational ("I'm doing a chemistry degree so that I can be a chemist") or inquisitive ("I'm doing a chemistry degree because it's so heckin' interesting").

I'd tend to advise people to study stuff they find interesting. I'd wager the percentage of degree holders doing a job that's directly related to their degree is in the minority, and that's not a bad thing.

Re: Why Northern England is poor

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stem degrees are pretty high rated

That's a vague answer that doesn't answer my specific question. I also have a STEM degree (electrical engineering) but would never be considered for finance roles.

I have a chemistry degree and an entire career doing software / system engineering in financial services.

I've also hired a boatload of people with STEM degrees. In fact (massive generalisation warning) I prefer hiring them to those with computer science degrees.

Re: Why Northern England is poor

#86

The very success of Northern England in the nineteenth century may have also precipitated a great deal of its subsequent failures. The rail, coal and manufacturing industries crowded out other forms of enterprise economically. The related union / capitalist disputes crowded out other political activity. Similarly the great agricultural “successes” of the Scottish Highlands in the 17th & 18th century crowded out every…

We'll have the same thing for the whole country when the time of housing investment comes to an end. Why start a business when you could just buy another house?

Re: Why Northern England is poor

#87
post #3

We also shifted largely into a service based economy, shutdown a lot of mines and mills (for better or for worse) which were primarily more north based. More than 2/3rds of my graduating physics class went straight into banking, as there was no relevant industry to pick them up... and as someone with several postdoctoral degrees, yet no house or meaningful assets... who could blame them for going into banking in this…

> More than 2/3rds of my graduating physics class went straight into banking This is why I advise people to never study physical sciences or non-software engineering. There just aren’t many jobs for it in the UK. And even fewer that pay well.

I don't live in the UK, but here in the USA I studied Physics and Music and then got a job programming. A lot of it was dumb luck, but I want to emphasize that school is about learning, not about vocational training. My experience in programming was due to being a giant nerd, not school.

Re: Why Northern England is poor

#88
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> More than 2/3rds of my graduating physics class went straight into banking This is why I advise people to never study physical sciences or non-software engineering. There just aren’t many jobs for it in the UK. And even fewer that pay well.

The usefulness of that depends on whether you think academic higher education is vocational ("I'm doing a chemistry degree so that I can be a chemist") or inquisitive ("I'm doing a chemistry degree because it's so heckin' interesting"). I'd tend to advise people to study stuff they find interesting. I'd wager the percentage of degree holders doing a job that's directly related to their degree is in the minority, and…

Inquisitive education is great for people who’re independently wealthy or academically exceptional.

But the average person takes a real risk of underemployment with that approach.

A friend of mine with a degree in marine biology works as a barista, another with a philosophy degree works as a retail assistant.

Re: Why Northern England is poor

#89
post #55

I think there's a fundamental gap in this analysis, which is how hyper-local many of the inequalities are. Manchester has a GDP per capita of £59,000. Tameside, the poorest area in Greater Manchester, has a GDP per capita of £19,000. Leeds has a GDP per capita of £42k; ten miles away, Bradford has a GDP per capita of £23.6k. Those disparities are really difficult to explain in terms of infrastructure or commercial in…

100% I live down the road from OP in Harrogate and it's an incredibly desirable and affluent place Also while I'm commenting. I know OP isn't saying the North is shit. Just poor(ish). Nevertheless I just want to say I love the north of England and genuinely think it's one of the best places in the world. We've already established that I'm in one of the better areas so my perspective might be a little skewed, but I ho…

Poor vs shit is an interesting discussion. If your life, your environment, isn't shit, why would you even care if are poor? Would you rather be rich and unhappy? (I spend very little, yet I don't feel deprived.)

Re: Why Northern England is poor

#90
post #55

I think there's a fundamental gap in this analysis, which is how hyper-local many of the inequalities are. Manchester has a GDP per capita of £59,000. Tameside, the poorest area in Greater Manchester, has a GDP per capita of £19,000. Leeds has a GDP per capita of £42k; ten miles away, Bradford has a GDP per capita of £23.6k. Those disparities are really difficult to explain in terms of infrastructure or commercial in…

100% I live down the road from OP in Harrogate and it's an incredibly desirable and affluent place Also while I'm commenting. I know OP isn't saying the North is shit. Just poor(ish). Nevertheless I just want to say I love the north of England and genuinely think it's one of the best places in the world. We've already established that I'm in one of the better areas so my perspective might be a little skewed, but I ho…

Also from the Harrogate area, but moved to London for uni and haven't made it back yet. Whilst Harrogate is very nice and affluent, I'd say the biggest difference isn't the personal wealth but the council wealth. There's far far far more wealth in the south and I've honestly been amazed at just how big the gap is, especially noticeable in infrastructure and services like roads and schools. Even the schools in poor areas of London are better than the local Harrogate schools. Just look at Yorks council funding (now merged with Harrogate) which has the lowest funding per capita in the UK.

Despite this tho I'd much rather live in Harrogate and enjoy the countryside than London tbh, plus people are less miserable there...

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