Why Northern England is poor • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Northern England is poor

#21

Post by asplake » Sat, Jan 25, 2025, 6:53 PM UTC

graemep wrote: post #18

tetris11 wrote: post #3

We also shifted largely into a service based economy, shutdown a lot of mines and mills (for better or for worse) which were primarily more north based. More than 2/3rds of my graduating physics class went straight into banking, as there was no relevant industry to pick them up... and as someone with several postdoctoral degrees, yet no house or meaningful assets... who could blame them for going into banking in this…

Most developed economies have shifted to services. Its a natural progression that results from higher productivity and higher wages. I think the big problem is too much reliance on on service sector.

A natural progression and not necessarily a bad thing, but it makes further productivity growth more difficult.

Re: Why Northern England is poor

#22

Post by EarlKing » Sat, Jan 25, 2025, 6:55 PM UTC

graemep wrote: post #18

tetris11 wrote: post #3

We also shifted largely into a service based economy, shutdown a lot of mines and mills (for better or for worse) which were primarily more north based. More than 2/3rds of my graduating physics class went straight into banking, as there was no relevant industry to pick them up... and as someone with several postdoctoral degrees, yet no house or meaningful assets... who could blame them for going into banking in this…

Most developed economies have shifted to services. Its a natural progression that results from higher productivity and higher wages. I think the big problem is too much reliance on on service sector.

It's a consequence of companies outsourcing to countries where they can get away with slave labor and a complete lack of environmental regulation. There's nothing natural about it.

Re: Why Northern England is poor

#23

Post by Cumpiler69 » Sat, Jan 25, 2025, 6:56 PM UTC

tetris11 wrote: post #3

We also shifted largely into a service based economy, shutdown a lot of mines and mills (for better or for worse) which were primarily more north based. More than 2/3rds of my graduating physics class went straight into banking, as there was no relevant industry to pick them up... and as someone with several postdoctoral degrees, yet no house or meaningful assets... who could blame them for going into banking in this…

>More than 2/3rds of my graduating physics class went straight into banking

How does one get hired into banking with a physics degree? For what kinds of jobs? Where I live right now you only get into banking with a economics/business degree. Anything else and your resume goes in the bin.

Re: Why Northern England is poor

#24

Post by guerrilla » Sat, Jan 25, 2025, 6:56 PM UTC

I'm sure Wales, Ireland and Scotland could have told you much the same just speculating off the top of their heads. England has always been a colonial project in one form or another, from day one. In fact a lot of it is common knowledge at least among the online left. One difference though: I think he under-emphasizes the shutting down of the coal mines; or at least others have historically emphasizes that more.

Re: Why Northern England is poor

#25

Post by sjclemmy » Sat, Jan 25, 2025, 6:56 PM UTC

I have never heard it referred to as North England. Northern England or the North of England yes. As a reluctant “northerner” it dunt sarnd reet.

Re: Why Northern England is poor

#26

Post by jdietrich » Sat, Jan 25, 2025, 6:58 PM UTC

I think there's a fundamental gap in this analysis, which is how hyper-local many of the inequalities are.

Manchester has a GDP per capita of £59,000. Tameside, the poorest area in Greater Manchester, has a GDP per capita of £19,000. Leeds has a GDP per capita of £42k; ten miles away, Bradford has a GDP per capita of £23.6k.

Those disparities are really difficult to explain in terms of infrastructure or commercial investment. Similar disparities exist within London, although for plausibly different reasons; compare Lewisham with the neighbouring Southwark, Camden with Haringey, or that one bit of Tower Hamlets with the rest of Tower Hamlets.

I think we need to be looking much more granularly at the gaps between neighbouring areas, schools and families - the human capital factors that trap people in lives of poverty. Building a university or innovation hub in Knowsley probably won't do much for the huge numbers of kids there who leave school unable to read and write.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/bulle...

Re: Why Northern England is poor

#27

Post by Cumpiler69 » Sat, Jan 25, 2025, 6:59 PM UTC

EarlKing wrote: post #22

graemep wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most developed economies have shifted to services. Its a natural progression that results from higher productivity and higher wages. I think the big problem is too much reliance on on service sector.

It's a consequence of companies outsourcing to countries where they can get away with slave labor and a complete lack of environmental regulation. There's nothing natural about it.

It's basically a modern form of economic colonialism replacing the old style of colonialism with ships, guns and slaves in chains.

The brutal hard work gets done off-shore for poor pay and the spoils(profits) get shipped to the western finance capitals of the world where people who put in little effort get the cream.

It's still dependent on rich countries having historical leverage (economic, political and especially military) over the poor countries where the dirty manufacturing and hard labor happens, rather than based on any meritocracy.

Re: Why Northern England is poor

#28

Post by deltarholamda » Sat, Jan 25, 2025, 7:02 PM UTC

EarlKing wrote: post #22

graemep wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most developed economies have shifted to services. Its a natural progression that results from higher productivity and higher wages. I think the big problem is too much reliance on on service sector.

It's a consequence of companies outsourcing to countries where they can get away with slave labor and a complete lack of environmental regulation. There's nothing natural about it.

Exactly this. Don't think of it as "moving to a service-based economy", think of it as "outsourcing manufacturing and resource extraction". They are two sides of the same coin, but people tend to only look at the one shiny side.

Like any race to the bottom, it works great until you hit the bottom. Only now you don't have any of the fundamental industry, and you've lost all of the domain knowledge of those industries. Short-term thinking is incredibly seductive.

Re: Why Northern England is poor

#29

Post by JanisErdmanis » Sat, Jan 25, 2025, 7:02 PM UTC

tetris11 wrote: post #3

We also shifted largely into a service based economy, shutdown a lot of mines and mills (for better or for worse) which were primarily more north based. More than 2/3rds of my graduating physics class went straight into banking, as there was no relevant industry to pick them up... and as someone with several postdoctoral degrees, yet no house or meaningful assets... who could blame them for going into banking in this…

> More than 2/3rds of my graduating physics class went straight into banking

This does not seem to be a specific phenomenon. Only a few of my former PhD condensed matter physics colleagues did not end up in finance.

Re: Why Northern England is poor

#30

Post by jakey_bakey » Sat, Jan 25, 2025, 7:05 PM UTC

Cumpiler69 wrote: post #23

tetris11 wrote: post #3

We also shifted largely into a service based economy, shutdown a lot of mines and mills (for better or for worse) which were primarily more north based. More than 2/3rds of my graduating physics class went straight into banking, as there was no relevant industry to pick them up... and as someone with several postdoctoral degrees, yet no house or meaningful assets... who could blame them for going into banking in this…

>More than 2/3rds of my graduating physics class went straight into banking How does one get hired into banking with a physics degree? For what kinds of jobs? Where I live right now you only get into banking with a economics/business degree. Anything else and your resume goes in the bin.

Stem degrees are pretty high rated