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The Terrifying Background of the Man Who Ran a CIA Assassination Unit

theatlantic.com

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Re: The Terrifying Background of the Man Who Ran a CIA Assassination Unit

#71

Post by pemulis »

chernevik wrote: post #28

That's quite a headline. But the article is mostly about delegations of authority (and that not in any real detail), a story of US contractors conducting assassinations, and one (1) corroborating opinion -- that corroboration in no detail, and almost certainly second-hand. There's a paragraph about the "terrifying background", in absolutely no detail whatsoever. This sort of thing has become a subgenre of its own, on…

What do you mean? The "terrifying background" seemed pretty clear to me -- a federal organized crime task force believed that he was involved in seven murders as a drug enforcer in Miami before becoming a contractor for the CIA.

Re: The Terrifying Background of the Man Who Ran a CIA Assassination Unit

#72

Post by refurb »

fatbird wrote: post #60
briandear wrote: post #38

It's almost ridiculous how some people get so indignant about CIA; I can almost feel their spittle as they shout at their computer screens. At the same time, people get equally outraged when terrorists kill people and then want to blame CIA for their failings. It's a bad world. I am not sympathetic to the plight of those who associate with terrorists (even if they themselves haven't committed a terrorist act) and fin…

The CIA was responsible, under Eisenhower's direction, for overthrowing Mosaddegh in Iran, leading to the Shah, and then the hostage crisis and the current regime. When you wave your hands and pretend to be adding up wins and losses like this, do you consider where the CIA is a net liability? How did their arming of the Afghans who would later become the Taliban work out, in your accounting?

I have to disagree with the word "responsible". There was a huge domestic opposition to Mosaddegh's rule in Iran. Did the CIA encourage this dissent? Yes. Did the CIA hasten the overthrow of Mosaddegh? Yes.

If the CIA had never gotten involved in Iran, would Mosaddegh have maintained rule? It's doubtful.

Re: The Terrifying Background of the Man Who Ran a CIA Assassination Unit

#73

Post by droithomme »

taligent wrote: post #65
Volpe wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "I won't use it, pinkies crossed" is no defense for such deadly weapons under any circumstances I can imagine. That's literally what the measure of allowing countries nukes is. Though, granted, North Korea withdrew from the "pinkies crossed" promise. But there are other countries (India, Pakistan, Israel) that have nuclear weapons but haven't promised to use them responsibly. Which no one seems to phased about, so…

You keep bringing this up and I keep answering you. North Korea has repeatedly attacked its neighbours with no good cause. Those other countries haven't.

You keep claiming they attack their neighbors. Which ones? They have two: China and Russia. They also share a border with the other half of Korea. This is similar to the Mason Dixon line. Both halfs are part of Korea. Do you also object to the War Between the States as unnecessary aggression of the North against the South?

Re: The Terrifying Background of the Man Who Ran a CIA Assassination Unit

#74

Post by stcredzero »

Volpe wrote: post #51
gareim wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing "random" about picking on Al-Qaeda. Also, the facts are that NK has nuclear capabilities. So yes, we believe the CIA about that.

Iraq, and Afghanistan are also apparently "terrorist nations"... but not Pakistan? Or Yemen? (Despite Al-Qaeda having proven links to both). But why is NK having nukes a problem? There is no proof they want to use them. Just posturing... Very similar to India and Pakistan. Edit: Did the CIA get upset when France developed and tested nuclear weapons? Do some countries deserve trust while others don't? What has North K…

> But why is NK having nukes a problem? There is no proof they want to use them. Just posturing... Very similar to India and Pakistan.

True that. I never thought about it that way.

> What has North Korea done, that caused the mistrust?

They're frickin nuts. They run horrific internment camps. Their ideology includes our defeat. (The western capitalist powers.)

Pakistan is a hodge-podge, which includes terrorist and islamist elements. I'm not up on the situation in Yemen.

Re: The Terrifying Background of the Man Who Ran a CIA Assassination Unit

#75

Post by fatbird »

refurb wrote: post #72
fatbird wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The CIA was responsible, under Eisenhower's direction, for overthrowing Mosaddegh in Iran, leading to the Shah, and then the hostage crisis and the current regime. When you wave your hands and pretend to be adding up wins and losses like this, do you consider where the CIA is a net liability? How did their arming of the Afghans who would later become the Taliban work out, in your accounting?

I have to disagree with the word "responsible". There was a huge domestic opposition to Mosaddegh's rule in Iran. Did the CIA encourage this dissent? Yes. Did the CIA hasten the overthrow of Mosaddegh? Yes. If the CIA had never gotten involved in Iran, would Mosaddegh have maintained rule? It's doubtful.

http://cryptome.org/cia-iran-all.htm

The CIA, in its own words, seems to feel that it was responsible for the "overthrow" of Mosaddegh, in a "coup" (their words).

At the time of the coup, Mosaddegh was more popular than before, enjoying majority support, and had just been granted emergency powers by parliament for six months, which then renewed them for twelve. I respectfully dispute your suggestion that, absent CIA interference, it's doubtful that he would have maintained rule.

Re: The Terrifying Background of the Man Who Ran a CIA Assassination Unit

#76

Post by Volpe »

bdunbar wrote: post #68
Volpe wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iraq, and Afghanistan are also apparently "terrorist nations"... but not Pakistan? Or Yemen? (Despite Al-Qaeda having proven links to both). But why is NK having nukes a problem? There is no proof they want to use them. Just posturing... Very similar to India and Pakistan. Edit: Did the CIA get upset when France developed and tested nuclear weapons? Do some countries deserve trust while others don't? What has North K…

Did the CIA get upset when France developed and tested nuclear weapons? France at the time was a member of NATO. So, no, probably not. Do some countries deserve trust while others don't? I would rephrase it 'do some governments deserve trust ... Yes. Intent matters. The UK is not possibly going to blow up New York City. For a while there in the 50s and 60s the same could not be said for the USSR. What has North Korea…

As I've said in other threads. How about Israel, they do all of those things[1], have Nukes, and are massive aggressors in their part of the world.

[1](Except the Stalinism)

Re: The Terrifying Background of the Man Who Ran a CIA Assassination Unit

#77

Post by refurb »

fatbird wrote: post #75
refurb wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to disagree with the word "responsible". There was a huge domestic opposition to Mosaddegh's rule in Iran. Did the CIA encourage this dissent? Yes. Did the CIA hasten the overthrow of Mosaddegh? Yes. If the CIA had never gotten involved in Iran, would Mosaddegh have maintained rule? It's doubtful.

http://cryptome.org/cia-iran-all.htm The CIA, in its own words, seems to feel that it was responsible for the "overthrow" of Mosaddegh, in a "coup" (their words). At the time of the coup, Mosaddegh was more popular than before, enjoying majority support, and had just been granted emergency powers by parliament for six months, which then renewed them for twelve. I respectfully dispute your suggestion that, absent CIA…

A couple points:

1. The plot to overthrow Mosaddegh went off exactly as planned. Ignoring any moral factors, it was very a impressive operation. I wouldn't doubt that CIA took as much responsibility for it as they could.

2. It is true that Mosaddegh had broad popular support, but he was also opposed by a large fraction of the population (eg. the mass protests that called for his head).

I'll take back the comment that he wouldn't have been able to maintain rule (I'll readily admit I can't predict the future). However, my point is that the CIA didn't create a coup out of thin air.

What the CIA did in Iran was provide operational support for the anti-Mosaddegh forces. Not really all that different than what the CIA did in Afghanistan during the war with Russia.

Re: The Terrifying Background of the Man Who Ran a CIA Assassination Unit

#78

Post by taligent »

droithomme wrote: post #73
taligent wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You keep bringing this up and I keep answering you. North Korea has repeatedly attacked its neighbours with no good cause. Those other countries haven't.

You keep claiming they attack their neighbors. Which ones? They have two: China and Russia. They also share a border with the other half of Korea. This is similar to the Mason Dixon line. Both halfs are part of Korea. Do you also object to the War Between the States as unnecessary aggression of the North against the South?

North and South Korea are two separate countries and represent themselves individually within international institutions e.g. UN or WTO. Also by every measure they are separate.

US states have an overarching political, financial and political system that in some parts supercedes the rights of the states.

So I don't think the two are really comparable.

Re: The Terrifying Background of the Man Who Ran a CIA Assassination Unit

#79

Post by taligent »

Volpe wrote: post #66
taligent wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You keep bringing this up and I keep answering you. North Korea has repeatedly attacked its neighbours with no good cause. Those other countries haven't.

I answered you directly (where you brought it up). Israel repeatedly attacked/s its neighbours (even occupying them). North Korea is timid in comparison. Good cause is debatable (for both Israel, and North Korea).

Care to provide an example why North Korea has good cause to invade South Korea ?

You know they keep trying right ?

Re: The Terrifying Background of the Man Who Ran a CIA Assassination Unit

#80

Post by specialist »

briandear wrote: post #38

It's almost ridiculous how some people get so indignant about CIA; I can almost feel their spittle as they shout at their computer screens. At the same time, people get equally outraged when terrorists kill people and then want to blame CIA for their failings. It's a bad world. I am not sympathetic to the plight of those who associate with terrorists (even if they themselves haven't committed a terrorist act) and fin…

  At the same time, people get equally outraged when terrorists kill people and then want to blame CIA for their failings.
Right!

It's almost ridiculous how some people get so indignant about about imagined pacifist dirty hippies; I can almost feel their spittle as they typety tap tap their anonymous comments. At the same time, those narcissistic people get equally outraged when their imagined political opponents don't actually hold those silly projected beliefs and then want to blame those opponents for not buying into their logical fallacies.

Blah, blah, blah. Insert filler nonsensical blather here. End with some mindless proclamation demonstrating my reasonableness and obvious moral superiority.

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