So because government programs in a work of fiction caused more harm than good, all government programs in the non-fiction world must be bad. Good logic.
'Atlas Shrugged': From Fiction to Fact in 52 Years
51–60 of 147 posts
Re: 'Atlas Shrugged': From Fiction to Fact in 52 Years
#52Absolutism: Simple. Satisfying. Wrong.
That sounds like an absolute statement... is absolutism always wrong?
Re: 'Atlas Shrugged': From Fiction to Fact in 52 Years
#53Earlier quoted context omitted.
God, that's kind of despicable. I'm no Objectivist, but there's a big freaking difference between a work of superstition and one of reason and logic. Whether you agree with Rand's premises, you must have had no exposure to her writing if you don't recognize her brilliance. She's not all right, but she's not wrong about everything either: The government confiscates citizens' money at the point of a gun.
"The government confiscates citizens' money at the point of a gun." Why don't you find a place where you don't have to pay taxes? Would it be as nice to live in as the US?
According to this...
http://www.irefeurope.org/col_docs/doc_26_fr.pdf [pdf]
...any given nation would be nicer, with no income- (including capital-gains) or consumption- taxes.
.
if the tax rate tends towards zero percent, its influence on the decisions taken by persons affected tends to be negligible.
...
less taxation, and, in addition, less distortionary taxation is desirable. Several studies even demonstrate that, from the point of view of maximizing economic growth, the long-run optimal taxation is zero. Milesi-Ferretti and Roubini (1994), for instance, show that under very general assumptions the optimal tax burden on labour and capital income is zero. Jones, Manuelli and Rossi (1993b) and Bull (1993) add that even consumption taxes ought to be equal to zero
Re: 'Atlas Shrugged': From Fiction to Fact in 52 Years
#54Earlier quoted context omitted.
(Not trying to be rhetoric, but a honest question ever since I encountered Rand's works) If, as a society, everyone is a "Value Creator", will we still require a government? What would be the job of the government then? "gives a false sense of moral certainty derived from an elitist denial of social complexity" - what kind of complexity are we talking about here? Is it the reality that not everyone is a "Value Creato…
> If, as a society, everyone is a "Value Creator", will we still require a government? If everyone created value by Rand's standards, were highly rational and reasonable, did not destroy value, and were otherwise law-abiding (or simply moral) citizens, then you might not need government, or at least a very minimal one. We're incredibly far off from such a world, however (assuming it's even possible), so we at least n…
Reading the first half of the comment, I was about to ask why people are the way they are, but your reference to Outliers stopped me. Thanks. I will have a look at Outliers.
Re: 'Atlas Shrugged': From Fiction to Fact in 52 Years
#55Atlas Shrugged is propaganda masquerading as art. The characters are thin shells used to promote Rand's thinking and in no way reflect reality. The idea that unbridled self interest leads to the greatest good guided Greenspan's monetary policy and got us into this mess. There is certainly a lot to be said for enlightened self interest and personal freedom, but the absolutism of objectivism is just as wrong as communi…
"The characters are thin shells used to promote Rand's thinking and in no way reflect reality."
Well, whose thinking do you think they should have promoted, exactly? And why do characters in a novel necessarily need to exactly reflect reality? I haven't run into any elves, dwarves, or immortal wizards, but that didn't stop me from enjoying Tolkien.
"The idea that unbridled self interest leads to the greatest good guided Greenspan's monetary policy and got us into this mess."
Really? How do artificially low interest rates translate into unbridled self interest?
Re: 'Atlas Shrugged': From Fiction to Fact in 52 Years
#56Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Chairman of the Federal Reserve had heard of Objectivism!" FYI Greenspan was a friend of Ayn Rand and was part of her inner circles. http://www.noblesoul.com/orc/bio/greenspan-time.html
Greenspan turned his back on Objectivism during the 70s.
He did? In what way? (Genuinely curious.)
My understanding is that, despite some of his views being at odds with her own, Rand was happy to have him in her inner circle anyway.
Re: 'Atlas Shrugged': From Fiction to Fact in 52 Years
#57Earlier quoted context omitted.
> it gives a sense of surety in an uncertain world In particular, a false sense of moral certainty derived from an elitist denial of social complexity.
(Not trying to be rhetoric, but a honest question ever since I encountered Rand's works) If, as a society, everyone is a "Value Creator", will we still require a government? What would be the job of the government then? "gives a false sense of moral certainty derived from an elitist denial of social complexity" - what kind of complexity are we talking about here? Is it the reality that not everyone is a "Value Creato…
There would still be honest misunderstandings between people that might require a court to resolve, or at least the possibility of going to court to encourage a settlement.
Also, you would still need a military unless the whole world was also on board.
Re: 'Atlas Shrugged': From Fiction to Fact in 52 Years
#58Earlier quoted context omitted.
Or the physicist who worked as a low-level railroad operator. I hate that most of the detractors of Atlas Shrugged misread the message. There are things to criticize, but the ones that do get criticized (Ayn Rand is a Nazi, she ignores the common laborer, she dares include a pirate as a character) are the ones that don't really matter regarding the main theme/are entirely wrong.
"I hate that most of the detractors of Atlas Shrugged misread the message." You assume they read it at all.
There is a famous scathing review by Whittaker Chambers (of the Alger Hiss controversy) that later got accusations that he'd never read it.
Some people who criticize Atlas Shrugged obviously have read it to at least some degree. They may have been skimming, or they might not have had an open mind, but some of the points are always satirisations of some parts of the novel.
Occasionally it's done well. Usually it's just a waste.
Re: 'Atlas Shrugged': From Fiction to Fact in 52 Years
#59Hmm. I tend to think that Rand's philosophy misses some important points, like: 1. Humans hate inequality, esp. those who are on the losing end, but it seems to make everyone unhappier in general. Inequality is useful, but probably needs some managing. 2. Massive wealth generated in modern societies, though it tends to fall into the hands of a few (exponentially so), is generated by having a society/collective. If yo…
I think (1) is a really interesting point, but don't you think that humans also strive for inequality? People don't just want to keep up with the Jones's, they derive great satisfaction from being ahead of the Jones's.
2) I think society benefits more from the generators of massive wealth than they do from the society. Obviously it is mutually beneficial, but the fountains of wealth would probably do fine with or without society.
Re: 'Atlas Shrugged': From Fiction to Fact in 52 Years
#60Hmm. I tend to think that Rand's philosophy misses some important points, like: 1. Humans hate inequality, esp. those who are on the losing end, but it seems to make everyone unhappier in general. Inequality is useful, but probably needs some managing. 2. Massive wealth generated in modern societies, though it tends to fall into the hands of a few (exponentially so), is generated by having a society/collective. If yo…
"Massive wealth generated in modern societies, though it tends to fall into the hands of a few (exponentially so), is generated by having a society/collective. If you have more wealth than you could ever generate with your own two hands, then you're benefitting from society in a major way, regardless of how much society takes back. (Even this is not strictly true--what you can generate with your own two hands depends on education, inventions society has given to you (like language), etc. It's hard to calculate one's debt to society.)"
You know, if you replace every instance of "society" in that sentence with "people throughout history who were left free to create things that make life easier, without having the product of their effort stolen from them," you'd get something Ayn Rand might have written herself.