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Don’t Jump to Conclusions About the Killer

nytimes.com

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Re: Don’t Jump to Conclusions About the Killer

#41

Post by corin_ »

Ygg2 wrote: post #37
kghose wrote: post #20

I've read about killings before, I lived through 9/11, but for some reason these killings struck me really hard. Even more than school shootings. Perhaps because I think of the cinema as sanctuary - a place of make believe where we go to escape (move over places of worship!) but mostly because I wanted to really know motivations - why did he do it? Especially when it turns out he's not a person who tortured animals a…

Why is there a need to find out why? Killing spree is a lot like thunderbolt. It has no prediction why it struck, in the path it stuck. If you only want to minimize risks of future murders, then don't read/watch the news. Each time a murderer has his/her face shown, she/he is glorified in even tiniest of ways (i.e. comic book villain), with a number of murders he/she committed put in front line, number of violent cop…

It's completely incorrect to say there is no explanation why it struck. Maybe it's true that it was impossible to predict, maybe it's true that we will never find out the cause, but can be 100% sure there is a cause.

Re: Don’t Jump to Conclusions About the Killer

#42

Post by zyb09 »

I don't think there was a rational motive behind this, or we would have heard about it by now. What the scary truth seems to be is, that these individuals are in a severely distorted state of perception, in which the killing of people becomes justifiable for them. He has most likely a extreme case of depression, psychosis or something else along those lines, of which the causes need to be investigated. But there will never be a reasonable "why", other then a sad story of a human being, who's life went wrong at one turn or another and in the end his mind malfunctioned. To prevent this from happening, I'd argue, given the amount of people, the complex society we live in and the unfortunate circumstances some people experience in their live, we need to accept that disturbed personalities like these sometimes "happen", and I'm not sure how to avoid that. In my opinion, the most effective prevention would probably be to restrict easy access to lethal weapons. When we realize that (sadly) our society can produce minds like this, we have to make sure you can't buy smoke grenades at a pawn shop.

Re: Don’t Jump to Conclusions About the Killer

#43

Post by nodemaker »

[deleted] wrote: post #32
coenhyde wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know American's do not like to hear this but I am of the opinion that it's easy access to guns which is the cause of these mass murders. Now that Australia has gun control, the crazy's just stab a few people. It's very hard to kill so many people with a knife. If you take away easy access to guns then sure the hard criminals will still have guns but the wannabe criminals and the lunatics will do less damage.

[deleted]

Maybe a handgun, but I find it pretty hard to imagine a PhD grad student managing to buy a semi automatic assault rifle or 100 round drum magazines off the street.

It is not entirely coincidental that Aurora and Columbine happened 20 miles from each other.

Re: Don’t Jump to Conclusions About the Killer

#44

Post by rweba »

kiba wrote: post #33
arturadib wrote: post #26

Think outside the box. I've lived in the US for 10 years, and I follow plenty of world news. It is clear that Columbine-like shootings are (mostly) an American phenomenon. [1] So what is it so special about the US that makes this a recurring problem? Is it poor parenting, without much communication? Is it societal pressure, i.e. Mr Popular vs Mr Loser? Is it easy access to guns? Is it the disproportionate amount of m…

I've lived in the US for 10 years, and I follow plenty of world news. It is clear that Columbine-like shootings are (with few exceptions) an American phenomenon. [1] Um, what? I can cite two mass murder incident in Japan off the top of my head. There is the Osaka school massacre and the Akihabara massacre.

"with few exceptions"

I can't back it up with facts but I do have the impression this sort of thing is significantly more common in the US than in any European, Asian, African or South American country.

I guess you would have to compile statistics for "Mass murderers with no clear motive per capita" and compile all the incidents going back at least 20 years and you might have evidence for or against.

For example, I can imagine this happening in any African countries I am familiar with, so to me it is clear that there is an element of culture involved.

Re: Don’t Jump to Conclusions About the Killer

#45

Post by Ygg2 »

paraschopra wrote: post #27

I'm getting convinced about an interesting new theory on free will. Our free will isn't exactly "free", and is not certainly a conscious act. What we will is determined by the genetic predispositions and a historical interaction of the self with environment. This creates a feedback loop and the self takes one of the trajectories for which it is NOT responsible. Yet, the consequences of the actions are faced by the se…

Actually scientist are of strong belief that mind is deterministic (it's a hypothesis so far, but all signs to point to it). However if people believe they are slaves to determinism then they act worse, since their actions are not their fault. Overall society on large must believe that they posses the freedom in order to make life bearable.

Other way to look on that is this. If _you_ are not responsible for your actions than _me_ will punish you since neither of us is responsible for their actions.

Re: Don’t Jump to Conclusions About the Killer

#46

Post by [deleted] »

[deleted] wrote: post #32
coenhyde wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know American's do not like to hear this but I am of the opinion that it's easy access to guns which is the cause of these mass murders. Now that Australia has gun control, the crazy's just stab a few people. It's very hard to kill so many people with a knife. If you take away easy access to guns then sure the hard criminals will still have guns but the wannabe criminals and the lunatics will do less damage.

[deleted]

[deleted]

Re: Don’t Jump to Conclusions About the Killer

#47

Post by paraschopra »

Ygg2 wrote: post #45
paraschopra wrote: post #27

I'm getting convinced about an interesting new theory on free will. Our free will isn't exactly "free", and is not certainly a conscious act. What we will is determined by the genetic predispositions and a historical interaction of the self with environment. This creates a feedback loop and the self takes one of the trajectories for which it is NOT responsible. Yet, the consequences of the actions are faced by the se…

Actually scientist are of strong belief that mind is deterministic (it's a hypothesis so far, but all signs to point to it). However if people believe they are slaves to determinism then they act worse, since their actions are not their fault. Overall society on large must believe that they posses the freedom in order to make life bearable. Other way to look on that is this. If _you_ are not responsible for your acti…

It's odd to say society must believe that they possess a freedom which isn't really there. Of course, in punishing me, you are not responsible, but by exposing this idea, I do hope your mindset will change. But if you punish me, I can't blame you.

I see ideas as agents that change trajectories of free will.

Re: Don’t Jump to Conclusions About the Killer

#48

Post by [deleted] »

nodemaker wrote: post #43
[deleted] wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

Maybe a handgun, but I find it pretty hard to imagine a PhD grad student managing to buy a semi automatic assault rifle or 100 round drum magazines off the street. It is not entirely coincidental that Aurora and Columbine happened 20 miles from each other.

[deleted]

Re: Don’t Jump to Conclusions About the Killer

#49

Post by rauljara »

"Psychologists describe depression as anger turned inward."

Correction: Freud described depression as anger turned inwards.

Specifically, he described anger at external forces (your mother, etc.) turned inwards. In his view, the only way to get rid of depression would be to allow this anger to express itself against the actual external force. This is very, very far away from the majority view of modern psychology (which has dismissed the vast majority of Freudian thought), but I still hear it repeated all the damn time.

The reason I think it's important to correct it is that therapies based on Freud's notion of depression not only aren't helpful, they in many cases made a person worse. It turns out, getting a person to focus on all the things that should make them angry in their life is, in fact, not helpful for their general mental health.

It is true that depressives tend to think a lot of shitty things about themselves. More successful cognitive behavioral therapy (which has been clinically proven to be as helpful as antidepressants in treating non-severe depression), tries to train people to think of alternatives to those shitty thoughts without necessarily saying which one alternative is right. Turns out, getting in the habit of thinking not just the worse thing possible is actually quite helpful. It gets you out of the rut your in.

Re: Don’t Jump to Conclusions About the Killer

#50

Post by agravier »

paraschopra wrote: post #27

I'm getting convinced about an interesting new theory on free will. Our free will isn't exactly "free", and is not certainly a conscious act. What we will is determined by the genetic predispositions and a historical interaction of the self with environment. This creates a feedback loop and the self takes one of the trajectories for which it is NOT responsible. Yet, the consequences of the actions are faced by the se…

Although interesting, it's not a particularly new theory. I advise you to read some philosophy. Modern philosophers will agree with you that the concept of free will poses many issues and contradictions. Among those alive, you could consult Kane, and for classical philosophers, you could read Steiner. Although, your own judgement should ultimately be drawn from neuroscience as well (using your free will ;)
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