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I Met Paul Graham Once

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Re: I Met Paul Graham Once

#211

Post by AnimalMuppet »

coderc wrote: post #104
snowwrestler wrote: post #58

Once upon a time, not that long ago, within my lifetime in fact, being gay was targeted for public abuse the way that transgender people are being targeting now. That has declined as people came to understand that being gay, lesbian, bi is part of how a person is made. Under public pressure, a gay person can act straight or at least act not gay. But it doesn't change who they are, doesn't help anyone around them, and…

It seems to me that prigs, as defined in pg's article, are just jumping on the transgender issue because it's an easy way for them to enforce rules. From my understanding, having read both articles, PG might say that the prigs have chosen to ride the lgbt movement. The problem is not with the lgbt movement itself. Unfortunately, this gives the movement a bad reputation. Some prigs aren't lgbt people at all, but they…

The prigs are doing a motte-and-bailey thing, where if you're against them, then they will claim that you're against trans people or gays or minorities or whoever.

Re: I Met Paul Graham Once

#212

Post by jrflowers »

hnthrowaway6543 wrote: post #60
gedpeck wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be curious. Be courteous and respectful. Be a normal, nice goddamn human to human across the table from you. In general I wholeheartedly agree. But if the person in front of you has done or advocated for things that cause harm or is themself a horrible person then I disagree.

> But if the person in front of you has done or advocated for things that cause harm or is themself a horrible person then I disagree. the current conflict in the middle east shows why this doesn't work in the long run. despite what a generation that grew up consuming Marvel films was led to believe, not every conflict is a clearly defined superhero-vs-supervillain, good-vs-evil affair. eventually, you will be the on…

It only “doesn’t work” if your goal is to appear morally impeccable to everyone.

If instead of this worrying you

> you will be the one who, according to some, is advocating for things that cause harm and is considered a horrible person.

you have a set of morals that centers something more or different than theoretical other people’s opinions, your example of the current “conflict in the Middle East” is still a good example just not for the reason you stated. It is a perfectly valid ethical position to think that genocide is bad and that people that advocate for genocide are also bad. To pivot to “actually the Really Bad Thing would be if you said that and someone somewhere disagreed with you” is weird and hollow.

“The truly wise know that everything is morally equivalent, except for the pursuit of unbounded approval which is Good for some reason, and believing otherwise is the same thing as getting your morals from comic book movies” isn’t a coherent or defensible moral position. The Marvel movie comparison is a thought terminating cliche.

Re: I Met Paul Graham Once

#213

Post by cabbaged »

whack wrote: post #42

I appreciate the author and this article. As an immigrant and person of color, the author's concerns resonate with me. I don't think people like PG or Andreessen are evil bigots. But they are underestimating and enabling a movement that is cruel and exclusionary by design. A movement that they seek to tame and harness, but not understanding that the movement is fundamentally untameable. I miss the days when the Repub…

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Re: I Met Paul Graham Once

#214

Post by snowwrestler »

inglor_cz wrote: post #208
snowwrestler wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a social movement that seeks the suppression of all transgender expression, including by fully informed adults. They led with “save the kids” for the emotional impact, as many other well-organized social movements have in the past. It works because concerns about kids are real. But it’s important to see and understand the greater goals of the movement, and how it affects everyone. The essay at the top of thi…

It is somewhat quaint, but the truth is often in the middle and compromises work the best. Which is something that doesn't really resonate with the social network era, which rewards wild posturing and extreme views with attention and clicks.

I agree, and I hope you stand up for your sense of the middle. Because there is something going on that is way larger than kids. Look at how quickly this adult essay got flagged off the HN homepage. Look at what the president said in his inaugural address today.

Re: I Met Paul Graham Once

#215

Post by inglor_cz »

snowwrestler wrote: post #214
inglor_cz wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is somewhat quaint, but the truth is often in the middle and compromises work the best. Which is something that doesn't really resonate with the social network era, which rewards wild posturing and extreme views with attention and clicks.

I agree, and I hope you stand up for your sense of the middle. Because there is something going on that is way larger than kids. Look at how quickly this adult essay got flagged off the HN homepage. Look at what the president said in his inaugural address today.

I do try to do so.

Can we actually vouch for the entire essay to come back?

I know that people can vouch for flagged comments, but I am not sure about entire submissions.

Re: I Met Paul Graham Once

#216

Post by diffxx »

inglor_cz wrote: post #181
snowwrestler wrote: post #58

Once upon a time, not that long ago, within my lifetime in fact, being gay was targeted for public abuse the way that transgender people are being targeting now. That has declined as people came to understand that being gay, lesbian, bi is part of how a person is made. Under public pressure, a gay person can act straight or at least act not gay. But it doesn't change who they are, doesn't help anyone around them, and…

I agree with you about a transgender person who is 23, but not about anyone who is claiming to be transgender at 13. That is way too young to be sure of such things, and peer pressures/influences exist. The current backlash is mostly caused by the hardcore activists pressuring for "the alternatives are either gender-affirming care or SUICIDE! SUICIDE! even for 13 y.o.'s" This attitude is so hysterical that it cannot…

This does not feel like at all a good faith reading of the situation. Hardcore anti trans-activists on the right would like to make life so miserable for transpeople as to essentially eliminate them from public life entirely. That is the context in which these supposedly hysterical responses emerge. I say supposedly hysterical because transgender people of all ages do commit suicide at a higher rate than other groups. This should be considered a public health emergency but it largely isn't because transgender people are the most useful scapegoat of the day (even better than immigrants). Of course that doesn't mean that every child who questions their self identity should be given immediate medical intervention, but neither does it mean we should deny care for all.

Re: I Met Paul Graham Once

#217

Post by yodsanklai »

raincole wrote: post #116
DeathRay2K wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re wrong that a so-called “war on hate” doesn’t work. More correctly, it doesn’t work in the US because of the first amendment and the few limitations on it. Many other countries have robust anti-hate speech laws that are effective, although less so in the age of the internet. People broadly conform to the society in which they live, and the rules of the society are broadly set by the laws they adhere to. So in c…

[flagged]

Article is behind a paywall. I found another article

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/a-german-woman-said-she-was-...

> The court did find the two men guilty of wrongly making and distributing the sex video and fined them 1,350 euros ($1,500) each. But it reserved its gravest punishment for Lohfink, levying her a fine of 24,000 euros for falsely accusing the men.

If we're talking about the same story, it has nothing to do with "war on hate".

Re: I Met Paul Graham Once

#218

Post by ethbr1 »

Suppafly wrote: post #203
ethbr1 wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Over and above their works and words?

Their associations are their works and words. You can't just handwave that stuff away as being irrelevant because you like the parts of their works and words that don't touch on anything you deem to be an association.

I know people of the political party I tend to disagree with who are saints and dedicate the majority of their time to others.

I know people of the political party I tend to agree with who are insufferable selfish pricks and treat others terribly.

Works and words aren't always associations.

Re: I Met Paul Graham Once

#219

Post by zilmer »

snowwrestler wrote: post #150
coderc wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that prigs, as defined in pg's article, are just jumping on the transgender issue because it's an easy way for them to enforce rules. From my understanding, having read both articles, PG might say that the prigs have chosen to ride the lgbt movement. The problem is not with the lgbt movement itself. Unfortunately, this gives the movement a bad reputation. Some prigs aren't lgbt people at all, but they…

Self-congratulatory, self-righteous prigs are all over the place within human society. When people complain about them, the substantive content of their complaint is the context in which they issue it. For example pg is complaining about the prigs who nag everyone about transgender acceptance, but not the prigs who nag everyone to reject and abuse transgender people. Matters of speech, manners, and decorum are conven…

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