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UK's hardware talent is being wasted

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Re: UK's hardware talent is being wasted

#291

Post by nobodywillobsrv »

roenxi wrote: post #98
r_thambapillai wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very true, although I suppose a significant fraction of the decline at that time might be a result of the end of the Empire, which given that there are simply no such successful Empires anywhere in the world anymore was almost certainly inevitable. By comparison, the performance of the UK in the last 20 years vs the US or the Nordics is a singular tragedy.

> there are simply no such successful Empires anywhere in the world anymore There is the US not-an-Empire [0] though, that'll probably count when the history books reflect on the present era. WWI/II can very easily be interpreted as a transition of power away from incompetent British leadership (indeed, European monarchies - the change pre- post- WWI is striking) towards more capable US-based leadership. It isn't cle…

It's interesting that incompetence ... Fabians started in 1884 and a lot of insanely destructive ideas seem to defend from those circles. We don't have the great leap forward it's slower but something as bad on a longer timescale

Re: UK's hardware talent is being wasted

#292

Post by HPsquared »

wakawaka28 wrote: post #90
mapt wrote: post #12

A lot of these complaints are not about an industry, but about late stage capitalism. About a failing society that privileges profits over social progress and material productivity because oligarchs and aristocracy own the institutions and are running this thing into the ground on base class instinct. All these cool "save the world" school projects exist because the current people running the world are deciding what…

Capitalism is not the problem so much as policies that promote trade imbalances and outsourcing of jobs. If there are people somewhere willing to work for much less than you are, there are far fewer opportunities to do anything. It is not normal to get a ton of cheap imports forever, and a reversion to the mean is not a sign that capitalism is failing. Unless the whole world was to demand the same standard of living…

What we are seeing is a great levelling out of living standards across the world. Poor countries are unquestionably getting richer, while rich countries are stagnating and decaying. It's a period of readjustment, but self-limiting.

Re: UK's hardware talent is being wasted

#293

Post by chii »

porker wrote: post #246
eru wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but what does it matter? Google has equity owners all over the world, but we still treat them as an American company, too.

Profit goes out of the country, reducing investment and rich UK people to invest in new UK companies. It's the same problem with many of our companies being sold to foreign investors: profits are taken outside the country (as we did to other countries in the 19th century and earlier) so our labour enriches other countries while our country gets poorer.

> labour enriches other countries while our country gets poorer.

in reality, the UK isn't poorer than before. It is about the same - no growth. It is only poorer when compared to the US's growth.

One's labour, when being paid market rates, does not make one's country poorer. And those profits from said labour was paid for by the acquitition of the capital - money was invested.

So in essense, the "poorness" that the UK feels right now is not a result of these companies getting foreign ownership, but the UK gov't lack of industrial policy and investment. Brexit is the last straw probably.

Re: UK's hardware talent is being wasted

#294

Post by sandermvanvliet »

CalRobert wrote: post #211
fxtentacle wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany, you can typically finance the first 1-3 years of your start-up through government gifts like "EXIST". That's why you don't need early seed investors.

Do you know any equivalent for the Netherlands by any chance? Everything I see is tiny amounts.

There is the SeedCapital route: https://english.rvo.nl/subsidies-financing/seed-capital

Re: UK's hardware talent is being wasted

#295

Post by Earw0rm »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #250
Earw0rm wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on the bankruptcy. Nobody is going to shed tears over investors losing out. Speculate to accumulate, risk and reward. But IDK how it works in other countries, UK bankruptcies also means customers, unsecured creditors (often other small businesses), and the State (payroll taxes) also lose out. And it leaves a bad taste when a company run at high risk of bankruptcy ("oh but we're a Start Up") screws over their…

In the US, most of those suppliers understand the nature of startups and are accustomed to working with them, fully aware they are likely to fail. The deals are structured appropriate for those realities and some suppliers specialize in or have a preference for startups. In the UK, many suppliers still treat startups like an exotic beast, or worse, a corner shop. US business has a familiarity and comfort with startup…

That's interesting!

Here, failing to pay your bills is both a breach of fair play, and what "dodgy" people i.e. criminals and con-artists do.

But equally it means we can operate a bit more of an honour system in terms of lines of credit. Small businesses typically allow one another at least some amount of credit terms, which they would not offer a private individual.

Re: UK's hardware talent is being wasted

#296

Post by HPsquared »

rwmj wrote: post #31
gjsman-1000 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, yeah, the meme copy-paste problem diagnosis, but what’s the solution? Rebuild into socialism? Rebuild into communism? Reset into early stage capitalism (lack of regulation and all)? How do you know that those systems won’t also have their own late stage failure? Case in point, the NHS right now. (Edit, posting too fast: To the person below who suggested 90% tax rates; the US never had those rates. On paper they…

Cracking down on monopolies and rentierism would be a good start. Followed by tying pension rises to worker's salaries. None of that is actually going to happen because of who votes combined with a government that's scared of its own shadow.

The government is the biggest rentier and monopolist of all. It's the elephant in the room.

Re: UK's hardware talent is being wasted

#297

Post by kleiba »

fxtentacle wrote: post #208
mrtksn wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely agree, the problem in Europe is not regulations or anything like that - it is a mindset issue. It is one of things that europeans can learn from Americans. My hypothesis is that this is a combination of old money and class consciousness. In other words, the rich are risk averse because all they care is preserving their wealth and the working class don’t believe and can’t even imagine that more is possible.

In Germany, you can typically finance the first 1-3 years of your start-up through government gifts like "EXIST". That's why you don't need early seed investors.

EXIST in particular targets universities, though, so not every founder is eligible.

Re: UK's hardware talent is being wasted

#298

Post by graemep »

jampekka wrote: post #244
bell-cot wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unfortunately the UK has not been... 20 years, or 112 years? Consider just how far the UK's place in the world fell between 1911 (George V ascended to the throne of the global superpower; his Royal Navy was launching 2 to 4 new capital ships per year ) and 1948 (3 years after "winning" WWII - and basics such as food, clothing, and gasoline were still strictly rationed).

Interestingly people, especially poor people, were better nourished during the WW 2 rationing than before the war. Also e.g. universal healthcare was establised post-war. Is number of war ships, or billionaires, a good measure for a country? https://blog.nationalarchives.gov.uk/food-thought-rationing-...

I have not drilled down into the data, but I think it highly likely poor people did not benefit.

I have read that the Empire was a fiscal net negative. That was offset by it being a free market area with policies that favoured the UK, the benefits from that went primarily to a small minority.

Re: UK's hardware talent is being wasted

#299

Post by mrtksn »

tirant wrote: post #288
mrtksn wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely agree, the problem in Europe is not regulations or anything like that - it is a mindset issue. It is one of things that europeans can learn from Americans. My hypothesis is that this is a combination of old money and class consciousness. In other words, the rich are risk averse because all they care is preserving their wealth and the working class don’t believe and can’t even imagine that more is possible.

Regulations often stem from a particular mindset. However, they also serve to perpetuate that mindset. As a member of the working class, I find there’s little incentive to build something new or innovate because the effort required to navigate through all the burdensome regulations is overwhelming. On top of that, any additional income I might generate from bringing my ideas or initiatives to market would be taxed at…

Which regulations exactly you find burdensome or overwhelming and stopping you from attempting the become wealthy, change your life and the world maybe?

Why would you skip having 1 billion Euros just because you could have had 2 Billion but the government took the rest? Up until 1960's rich Americans payed %91 tax, and yet they kept their entrepreneurial spirit - why you can't do the same at the stated %50?

When Apple was founded, the tax rates were %70.

Re: UK's hardware talent is being wasted

#300

Post by blitzar »

graemep wrote: post #243
r_thambapillai wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very true, although I suppose a significant fraction of the decline at that time might be a result of the end of the Empire, which given that there are simply no such successful Empires anywhere in the world anymore was almost certainly inevitable. By comparison, the performance of the UK in the last 20 years vs the US or the Nordics is a singular tragedy.

Not greatly different from Germany or Nordic countries, or EU average, and better than France or Japan. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/gdp-per-capita-worldbank?... Its a Europe wide problem.

Switching to % change - EU beats US.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/gdp-per-capita-worldbank?...

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