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UK's hardware talent is being wasted

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Re: UK's hardware talent is being wasted

#61

Post by alephnerd »

HPsquared wrote: post #22
alephnerd wrote: post #10

I agree with this call to action. Sadly, I think there are more fundamental issues in the UK economy. For all intents and purposes, Venture Capital is dead in the UK. While companies do get funded in the UK and are technically "UK domiciled" - in action most of their Engineering and Product teams are located in Eastern Europe or India, or are startups from those markets (and China) who domiciled in the UK to raise fr…

I don't understand why it's so bad in a country that's supposedly amazing at financial services.

It's because the UK is so good at financial services.

It's fairly easy to deploy capital in the UK in mainland Europe, the US, India, China, ASEAN, and Middle East, which means there isn't much of an incentive to deploy it within the UK in industries that the UK cannot compete directly in.

For example, Dyson has almost entirely shifted operations to ASEAN (Phillipines and Malaysia primarily).

And AugustaWestland/Leonardo, Rolls Royce, AstraZeneca, GSK, BT Group, JLR, and BAE have largely shifted operations to the US and India.

The UK could make it harder to offshore, but then that also destroys the UK's entire financial and services industry, because most of the capital in the UK exists because it's a connector for global markets and would leave if that is ended.

They're damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Re: UK's hardware talent is being wasted

#62

Post by syntaxing »

refrigerator wrote: post #19

This is spot on. All the smart and ambitious people I know who studied (non-software) Engineering at university in the UK have ended up going into software engineering via self-teaching or finance/consulting because the only hardware engineering career paths seem to be working for Rolls Royce in the middle of nowhere with terrible pay, or alternatively working at Jaguar Land Rover in the middle of nowhere with terrib…

Was a MechE for 10 years here in the US and now I’m a SWE. Even here, no one cares about hardware engineers. Don’t get me wrong, you can make enough to be “comfortable”. But anecdotally, maybe 10% of MechE do design. 10% of that are paid handsomely to be in tech and are “Product Designers”. Even then, almost every tech company want to be a predominantly software company. They just happen to need hardware to execute their product. Admittedly, it’s really hard to do hardware in this economy when one country has 60% of the global manufacturing output and can copy your design, make it cheaper, and make it better. Ironically, the biggest dividing line that makes a hardware product better is good software.

Re: UK's hardware talent is being wasted

#63

Post by yearolinuxdsktp »

LarsDu88 wrote: post #52

Ad services, once it was monopolized by Google and Facebook really warped the value of the software engineering profession over other areas. Software is incredibly valuable, but there are other technology areas that are much harder and equally as valuable (if not more so when augmented with good software). A lot of software engineers who only know the last 20 years have inflated egos as results. How many technology e…

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Re: UK's hardware talent is being wasted

#64

Post by HPsquared »

alephnerd wrote: post #61
HPsquared wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why it's so bad in a country that's supposedly amazing at financial services.

It's because the UK is so good at financial services. It's fairly easy to deploy capital in the UK in mainland Europe, the US, India, China, ASEAN, and Middle East, which means there isn't much of an incentive to deploy it within the UK in industries that the UK cannot compete directly in. For example, Dyson has almost entirely shifted operations to ASEAN (Phillipines and Malaysia primarily). And AugustaWestland/Leon…

On the other hand, the UK has all these cheap engineers. Is it just that they're not actually cheap, on the international market?

Re: UK's hardware talent is being wasted

#65

Post by wenc »

marbro wrote: post #27

Why don't all British hardware engineers move to the United States? What keeps them in Britain?

Ironically, other countries (former British colonies) have more access to US "specialty occupation" working visas than the UK does -- none of these are H1-B.

Canadians and Mexicans have TN, Australians have E3, Singapore and Chile have H-1B1 (a subcategory of H1-B but with its own quotas).

https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/temporary...

Most foreign engineers in the US (outside of H-1Bs) are actually Canadians.

But there are no easy visas for the UK.

Re: UK's hardware talent is being wasted

#66

Post by cjbgkagh »

alephnerd wrote: post #61
HPsquared wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why it's so bad in a country that's supposedly amazing at financial services.

It's because the UK is so good at financial services. It's fairly easy to deploy capital in the UK in mainland Europe, the US, India, China, ASEAN, and Middle East, which means there isn't much of an incentive to deploy it within the UK in industries that the UK cannot compete directly in. For example, Dyson has almost entirely shifted operations to ASEAN (Phillipines and Malaysia primarily). And AugustaWestland/Leon…

It was always going to be a trap, but it’s been so long in the making that those who started the UK on that path have long since retired wealthy.

Re: UK's hardware talent is being wasted

#67

Post by cjbgkagh »

HPsquared wrote: post #64
alephnerd wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because the UK is so good at financial services. It's fairly easy to deploy capital in the UK in mainland Europe, the US, India, China, ASEAN, and Middle East, which means there isn't much of an incentive to deploy it within the UK in industries that the UK cannot compete directly in. For example, Dyson has almost entirely shifted operations to ASEAN (Phillipines and Malaysia primarily). And AugustaWestland/Leon…

On the other hand, the UK has all these cheap engineers. Is it just that they're not actually cheap, on the international market?

Rent, taxes and industrial regulation plays a big part. As does power costs. Then there is political costs, it’s hard to rely on UK politicians not doing foolish things and tanking your company on a whim.

Re: UK's hardware talent is being wasted

#68

Post by jebarker »

rwmj wrote: post #41
marbro wrote: post #27

Why don't all British hardware engineers move to the United States? What keeps them in Britain?

It's practically very difficult to move to the US. Getting a visa is hard even in the best case (with a helpful sponsor). And if you're in any way settled in the UK (partner, house, possessions, etc) then you've got multiple other problems to solve.

> partner, house, possessions, etc) - then you’ve got multiple other problems to solve

I get the intent, but this made me laugh

Re: UK's hardware talent is being wasted

#69

Post by LarsDu88 »

yearolinuxdsktp wrote: post #63
LarsDu88 wrote: post #52

Ad services, once it was monopolized by Google and Facebook really warped the value of the software engineering profession over other areas. Software is incredibly valuable, but there are other technology areas that are much harder and equally as valuable (if not more so when augmented with good software). A lot of software engineers who only know the last 20 years have inflated egos as results. How many technology e…

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To be fair, a lot of European countries and localities do not treat their water with fluoride at all. Some have better dental health purely due to better healthcare/dental coverage.

The onset of anti-vaccine sentiment will do far more damage and shouldn't be bracketed in that same category.

Re: UK's hardware talent is being wasted

#70

Post by jacknews »

poisonwomb wrote: post #36

The UK as a society doesn’t care about anything related to industrial production because it is ideologically opposed to anything resembling an industrial working class. Skilled jobs are anathema to the ethos of the people in charge of the UK’s industrial policy - who have never held a skilled job in their life - as they would prefer everyone to be a backbiting, striving social climber like them, either moving money a…

I'm not sure I agree with the tone of this, but imho it's definitely true that British culture views STEM people as just a bunch of nerds ('boffins') to be told what to do, and not really trusted, wheras the 'important' serious people are all 'media' types; politics, sales and marketing, people-people.

Probably true to some extent the world over, but especially malignant in UK, as you say. It wouldn't be so bad if the UK's executives had a track record of excellence, but they are generally abysmal.

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