Mojang, makers of Minecraft, sued by patent troll • Hacker News Board

Re: Mojang, makers of Minecraft, sued by patent troll

#101

Post by hmmmmmmmmmm » Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 9:24 PM UTC

rprasad wrote: post #98

hmmmmmmmmmm wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for all your comments on this page, they're very illuminating. I understand why a lawsuit could target the American LLC, but even if I dissolve it or let it go under, why wouldn't I and my assets still be protected? I understand that once I switch to the foreign LLC I'd have to avoid any business ties to the U.S. (i.e. move my hosting overseas). I assume that I'd still have subscribers to my service in the U.S…

Jurisdiction for the lawsuit arises from (1) past contacts with the U.S. at the time of the claim from which the lawsuit arises or (2) current contacts with the U.S. For example, if your LLC is being sued for...say, slander, that supposedly occurred 6 months ago, and your LLC were conducting business in the U.S. 6 months ago, your LLC would be subject to the jurisdiction of the U.S. courts based upon your past contac…

But if I've dissolved my American LLC and sold/transferred all its assets to my new LLC (or LLC equivalent) in $COUNTRY, what can they really do? They can't sue my old LLC, it's nonexistent. They can't sue me, I'm not liable for the activities of my American LLC. They could sue my new LLC, but they'd have to file in $COUNTRY, where the patent (or whatever) laws are more favorable to me. I suppose they could get an injunction in the U.S. to prevent my new LLC from selling to customers here, but with a webapp that I just sell subscriptions to, how could they enforce that?

I'm sure that I'm missing something here, but I don't know what.

Re: Mojang, makers of Minecraft, sued by patent troll

#102

Post by AJ007 » Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 9:40 PM UTC

primatology wrote: post #64

gnaritas wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop distribution? With what, magic? Hasn't everyone learned by now that you can't stop distribution of digital data?

You can never stop the determined. But the courts could certainly pull the app from the Android store.

Last notch tweeted Xbox sales were over 3 million, at $20 each that's $60m worth of sales. No idea about Android or iOS.

Restitution could come from revenues of any US product sales or assets, not just the specific one being contested.

Re: Mojang, makers of Minecraft, sued by patent troll

#103

Post by niels_olson » Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 10:22 PM UTC

> Uniloc

aka "one line of code"?

I have a hypothesis that at least some of the patent trolls are actually a non-violent protest against the way patent law is implemented. They're forcing, demanding, the legal system catch up.

Re: Mojang, makers of Minecraft, sued by patent troll

#104

Post by jahewson » Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 10:47 PM UTC

rprasad wrote: post #83

jahewson wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might also be expected to take some measures to enforce this, such as a State drop-down box, with an "I agree" EULA/ToS.

You are referring to a "choice of forum" clause (which is distinct from a "choice of jurisdiction clause"). Choice of forum determines where any disputes are held. Choice of jurisdiction determines what state's laws apply (if the dispute involves a matter of state law).

I don't think so, I was suggesting that a company could simply not do business with anyone in an undesirable location (e.g. Texas), and have that as part of the EULA, but with some proactive form of enforcement such as a drop-down, much like those "enter your birthday" age-checks, as passively adding it to the EULA text might not be good enough.

Re: Mojang, makers of Minecraft, sued by patent troll

#105

Post by sigkill » Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 11:10 PM UTC

jlarocco wrote: post #99

Vivtek wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd also like to hear an expert's opinion, but isn't the entire point of a limited liability company to limit liability?

I'm not an expert, but that's not quite how LLCs work. LLCs limit the liability of the owner. Not the LLC. Lets say I install plumbing in your house and it fails and damages your property, so you sue my company. If I'm a sole proprietor or a couple of guys doing business as a partnership then suing the company effectively means suing me (us) personally. If I lose and owe you $1 million, you can have my plumbing stuff…

I'm not a lawyer, but I've got a LLC equivalent and you're almost spot on.

If I own 25 of a company's shares, and let's say the shares are worth $1000 each then it means they can only claim a maximum of $25000 from me. Which is actually my investment in the company. So the worst thing they can do is take over my shares. Along with that, they can hypothecate any and all equipment that has been purchased in the company's account. So, the company car, company computer, server space, domain name, tables, chairs, office space etc.

What they cannot do is physically come into my home and forcably take my wife's jewelry and my personal computer. They cannot take my television or my car. Because those have been bought on "my" money, i.e. the salary that I'm claiming from the company.

This is LLC/WLL.

But what I'm interested is a bit different. Say, I run a business called algorithms.com with my company registered in Sweden. If tomorrow a patent troll in Texas files a suit against me, it's obvious that the US DOJ cannot shut down my business. But can they seize the domain name, only simply because it's a .com instead of a .se or a .whatever else

Re: Mojang, makers of Minecraft, sued by patent troll

#106

Post by dangrossman » Sun, Jul 22, 2012, 12:15 AM UTC

sigkill wrote: post #60

hmmmmmmmmmm wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would this be a viable way to escape some frivolous patent lawsuit? I've often wondered about this, and even tried to research it somewhat, but I'm still unsure about it. Suppose I have an LLC for my small (one-man) business in the U.S., and then I get targeted by a patent troll with some ridiculous claims. Can I simply start up another LLC in another country (one with saner patent laws), transfer my domains/hosting/…

Even I would like an expert to answer this. Assuming my domain is a .com domain, does the USA have jurisdiction over the company even if say, it's registered in Sweden?

Seizing your .com domain is the US's primary method of enforcement against non-US entities that violate US intellectual property laws.

http://mashable.com/2010/11/27/homeland-security-website-sei...

Re: Mojang, makers of Minecraft, sued by patent troll

#107

Post by georgespencer » Sun, Jul 22, 2012, 12:18 AM UTC

DannyBee wrote: post #70

georgespencer wrote: post #15

The patent is here: http://www.google.com/patents/US6857067?printsec=abstract#v=... I'd encourage you all to read it. The majority of the summary, related art and claims are related to "smart cards". That is: a user plugs a smart card into their computer, which has one half of a licence key on it, and it then verifies this with a server either over LAN or the web. There are a couple of broad claims which could, if up…

While you may be correct that the system was designed for/with/about smart cards, none of the claims relate specifically to smart cards, and are quite broad. Stay out of the summary, description, and abstract when reading a patent, and just skip to the claims. Read the independent claims (the ones that don't start with "the .... according to claim X"). If you find that there are reasonable definitions of each term in…

Hence:

> There are a couple of broad claims which could, if upheld, cripple many systems which work like this (log in to installed software over the web, essentially).

Re: Mojang, makers of Minecraft, sued by patent troll

#108

Post by mparlane » Sun, Jul 22, 2012, 1:40 AM UTC

kposehn wrote: post #74

What I find so hilarious about this is that they refer to it as "Mindcraft".

Invalid lawsuit? :P

Re: Mojang, makers of Minecraft, sued by patent troll

#109

Post by rcfox » Sun, Jul 22, 2012, 1:40 AM UTC

dangrossman wrote: post #106

sigkill wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even I would like an expert to answer this. Assuming my domain is a .com domain, does the USA have jurisdiction over the company even if say, it's registered in Sweden?

Seizing your .com domain is the US's primary method of enforcement against non-US entities that violate US intellectual property laws. http://mashable.com/2010/11/27/homeland-security-website-sei...

What about .net? Minecraft's URL is http://www.minecraft.net/

Re: Mojang, makers of Minecraft, sued by patent troll

#110

Post by dangrossman » Sun, Jul 22, 2012, 1:44 AM UTC

rcfox wrote: post #109

dangrossman wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seizing your .com domain is the US's primary method of enforcement against non-US entities that violate US intellectual property laws. http://mashable.com/2010/11/27/homeland-security-website-sei...

What about .net? Minecraft's URL is http://www.minecraft.net/

Verisign manages the registry and backend services for .com, .net, .name, .cc, .tv, .jobs and .edu (even though .cc and .tv aren't American TLDs). Other American companies run most of the other generic TLDs as well, including .org. Thus, they are all susceptible to US court orders to disable a domain.

Even if you register a TLD operated outside the US, be careful which registrar you choose to do so at. GoDaddy, a US company, is the #1 registrar worldwide, and has many times taken control of domains at US government request even when not legally obligated to.