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Using ChatGPT is not bad for the environment

andymasley.substack.com

221–230 of 337 posts

Re: Using ChatGPT is not bad for the environment

#221
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that's not the point of this: the point is that humans have absolutely finite time to think about problems, and so the way you distract from a problem is by inventing a new more exciting one. LLMs are in the news cycle, so sending all the activists after LLMs sure does a good job ensuring they're not going after anything which would be more effective doesn't it? (setting aside my thoughts for the moment of the…

Then again, if you can stall a nascent polluter before it becomes entrenched, maybe that's the right time to intervene. Getting people to not eat meat is hard, we've been eating meat forever. Getting people to not use LLMs? That's where most of us were up until very recently.

"Don't use LLMs" is just another variant of "don't use electricity".

Reframe the problem like that and then realize that no one's going to do it: global electricity use is constantly increasing. Fortunately, global renewable energy use is also growing incredibly rapidly.

Which problem seems more tractable? Because reality has already proven it: people will happily switch to clean electricity and keep using electricity. They won't voluntarily use less electricity unless they get some benefit from that - i.e. reduced expenditure, or just plain more stuff (i.e. my LED lights consume a fraction of the power of my previous halogens, but are brighter and I have more of them and also can change light color on a schedule).

Re: Using ChatGPT is not bad for the environment

#222
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to be rude but I don't think that your personal experience is of any interest. The only question is "are LLM relevant ?" And the only way to assert that they are is to get numbers (big or small) and to compare them to alternatives.

> I don't think that your personal experience is of any interest But you didn't specify what you meant by "useful," hence why I asked the question I did. So under such ambiguity, my assertion is absolutely a counterpoint to what you just said. I will ask again, useful for whom, by what definition?

Oh! Good point, we may not have the same definition of usefulness.

By useful I mean, to the world. That it affect the world in a good way. Maybe it's not the best technology to do something but replace the best way in an CO2 effective way. Maybe it is not a clean technology but increase overall fairness.

I don't know, but it had to have a good income to the world in a way.

Re: Using ChatGPT is not bad for the environment

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Driving to work" is hardly a "vote with your wallet" style consumer choice. Our housing, building, and transportation policies have been geared towards encouraging car-dependence for nearly a century. In places with better public transit and bike lanes, people spontaneously choose to use those modes of transport. Just like with companies dumping as much plastic waste/CO2 as they can get away with, this is a policy p…

Regular voting is usually what affects things such as the transportation infrastructure in your country or city. It’s a slow proceed though. Here in Oslo there has been a lot of investment in bike lanes, but just because one part of the local government builds more bike lanes doesn’t mean that other parts of the government will follow suit. Police still doesn’t care about cars illegally blocking the bike lanes. The p…

Speaking of Oslo and bicycles, I just want to add an amazing statistic that surfaced a couple of years ago here on Hacker News:

Oslo has a zero pedestrian and bicycle mortality rate!

https://thecityfix.com/blog/how-oslo-achieved-zero-pedestria...

> In 2015, the political climate and public will in the City of Oslo changed the tone on accepting continued surface transportation fatalities. The mayor, city council and transport division staff all supported a shift in roadway decision-making from car-centric to people-centric. [...]

Neighboring capitals with similar progressive bicycle cultures (Denmark, Sweden) have somewhat low but non-zero mortality rate as Oslo had 6 years ago. So the policies definitely make a change, but it's the consequence of a culture. You won't see American politicians suggesting a ban on cars in big cities.

Re: Using ChatGPT is not bad for the environment

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- Ozone - Efficient Lighting (LEDs now, but others before) - Santa Claus There are certainly examples of a large portion of the population of the planet working together towards common goals. A lot of people putting in a little bit of effort _does_ happen, and it _does_ produce results.

There was a profit motive in all of those except Santa. For instance until the main players in CFCs (which were the main cause of ozone depletion) were able to invent, patent, and market an alternative to CFCs they successfully lobbied against any change. Then they got a new patent, turned 180 degrees, claiming CFCs were the worst thing to ever exist - and made a ton of money after they were banned. Same thing with s…

I agree with you and that’s why I’m believe soy will conquer the humans nutrition sooner or later. It already is the undisputed king of world-scale animal nutrition because it’s cheap and super nutritious. The drawbacks in Brasil happens because of its success, replace by another crop and the problems will be even worse.

Replace animals proteins for humans by soy for human and you can divide world soy production by ~5.

Re: Using ChatGPT is not bad for the environment

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, recognizing that the problem is political is step one. Step two is... political activism, I guess? Lack of local political engagement and organizing is part of what allows problems like these to form.

Not just lack but outright apathy and villainizing of these attempts. If you try to tax gas some oil CEO will run a campaign explaining to the working class that their commute will now cost 10% more, which obviously makes people upset. Part of it is that we, unfortunately, can’t actually subsidize car commuters anymore. But part of it is that CEO is going to incur a cost of 50%, as he should, which is why he’s bother…

It is not feasible to take a bike or public transportation to work in many parts of the world so a policy change like that would just incur an additional cost to those who have no alternative.

A better idea is to encourage other types of transportation in private companies rather than penalize existing companies with taxes. If taxing the companies will raise prices on consumers, you might as well consider it an additional tax on the people.

Re: Using ChatGPT is not bad for the environment

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you belive this? Datacenter uses just a 1-1.3 percent of electricity from grid and even if you suppose AI increased the usage by 2x(which I really doubt), the number would still be tiny. Also AI training is easiest workload to regulate, as you can only train when you have cheaper green energy.

I also had doubts, but asked chat and it confirms it’s an issue - including sources. https://chatgpt.com/share/678b6b3e-9708-8009-bcad-8ba84a5145... The issue is that they are often localised, so even if it’s just 1% of power, it can cause issues. Still, by itself, grid issues don’t mean climate issues. And any argument complaining about a co2 cost should also consider alternative cost to be reliable. Even if ai was…

What do you mean by confirms the issue? What's the issue exactly?

Re: Using ChatGPT is not bad for the environment

#229
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right just a little bit of restraint. On an unprecedented scale of coordination by hundreds of millions to billions of people - a scale of cooperation that has probably never occurred in human history (and there's no reason to believe it will any time soon). But sure, if people "just" did a "little", it would go a long way. Just a _little_ restraint from the entire population all at once in perpetuity. No big deal.

Yes, a big multi government marketing campaign "Just don't eat meat 1 or 2 days a week" can definitely work. E.g. friday is "Fish day" in a lot of places (education/public) due to Catholic church influences. Just need a catchy word and campaign for "Veggie Wednesday".

Meatless Mondays are a thing.

Re: Using ChatGPT is not bad for the environment

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Yikes. Is this type of schizoposting allowed on HN?

Please don't do that. Schizophrenia is a serious mental illness. Don't further stigmatize it by conflating it with the racist drivel posted above.
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