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Right to root access

medhir.com

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Re: Right to root access

#411

Post by anfilt »

medhir wrote: post #351
anfilt wrote: post #157

I have talked about this before. The issue goes further in my opinion and starts to effect property rights themselves. In particular locked down hardware starts to effect the owners right of exclusion. The right of exclusion loosely is the right include or exclude something from/usesing some property. When the hardware is locked down the owner can know longer solely make those decisions. Instead in the instance of li…

thanks for sharing. the loss of property rights is an aspect I hadn’t considered… would be great to brainstorm further with an actual lawyer on these topics

I recommend reading that paper I posted in the other comment. It underscores how important the right of exclusion is.

Re: Right to root access

#412

Post by bboygravity »

Magnusmaster wrote: post #265
bboygravity wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree useful rooting should be easier, but it's definitely possible and not super hard to hide rooting. I'm typing this on a rooted phone where all (banking) apps work just fine. All it takes is downloading an app (magisk) and add apps to a list that need to have rooting hidden.

Magisk only works because Google still supports devices that don't support hardware attestation. Very soon you won't be able to fool Play Integrity without hacking the TEE

Well that's going to really really suck.

Re: Right to root access

#413

Post by kachapopopow »

bobdvb wrote: post #399
cakealert wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect DRM will eventually be self defeating. For example, I prefer to torrent content just so that I can get stuff to play using my media player of choice (and the instant seeks) without any hassle. Most normal people probably aren't even aware this is an option. But with cryptocurrencies normalizing it's only a matter of time before a paid piracy service emerges that is both cheaper, simpler and better than Netf…

I'm a senior person who looks after content protection and anti-piracy at a major streaming company. The idealism of those who want to see the demise of DRM doesn't actually hold up in the face of reality. Even when we remove restrictions and give global access to content, for free, pirates don't give up. One of the reasons is that many pirate sites get ad revenue, piracy is a business for many folk and they get the…

The biggest problem with this is that DRM does not work, there will always be mediums such as blu-ray releases, some chinese display controller or l3 data decryption available.

Re: Right to root access

#414

Post by bobdvb »

cakealert wrote: post #409
bobdvb wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a senior person who looks after content protection and anti-piracy at a major streaming company. The idealism of those who want to see the demise of DRM doesn't actually hold up in the face of reality. Even when we remove restrictions and give global access to content, for free, pirates don't give up. One of the reasons is that many pirate sites get ad revenue, piracy is a business for many folk and they get the…

I'm sure you are aware that there are groups (scenes) which break your DRM as a hobby, they sacrifice device keys for 4K HDR content. And they do it for just the reputation. More money than ever flows into piracy these days. Even with complete monolithic control (which is an unlikely objective) over the entire chain from distribution to display there will be a way to obtain good quality output from a hijacked LCD con…

Yup, and I have zero issue with people finding exploits, ultimately many of those just serve to help us improve security as they get released.

Ultimately the goal of content protection (not just DRM) is to make it as inconvenient as possible to take content without paying. No security system is going to be perfect, but when you make it secure enough that people concentrate on weaker targets (or give up), then you're content.

Re: Right to root access

#415

Post by bobdvb »

kachapopopow wrote: post #413
bobdvb wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a senior person who looks after content protection and anti-piracy at a major streaming company. The idealism of those who want to see the demise of DRM doesn't actually hold up in the face of reality. Even when we remove restrictions and give global access to content, for free, pirates don't give up. One of the reasons is that many pirate sites get ad revenue, piracy is a business for many folk and they get the…

The biggest problem with this is that DRM does not work, there will always be mediums such as blu-ray releases, some chinese display controller or l3 data decryption available.

By that measure, locks on our houses don't work, so we shouldn't bother locking the door? To repeat what I said to the other commentor:

Ultimately the goal of content protection (not just DRM) is to make it as inconvenient as possible to take content without paying. No security system is going to be perfect, but when you make it secure enough that people concentrate on weaker targets (or give up), then you're content.

Re: Right to root access

#416

Post by Grimblewald »

therealmarv wrote: post #193

Banking, some government and crypto apps on Android think: no They sometimes actively search for root evidence.

the weird thing about banking apps is, if i don't install them and just log in via browser I don't need any of that bullshit. So why does my bank app need all that, if they're ok with browser just logging in? It all feels a little like something the app monkeys got sucked into because they don't know better and trust google more than they should.

Re: Right to root access

#417

Post by notorandit »

fsflover wrote: post #390
notorandit wrote: post #346

Yes, please! Unfortunately, your smartphone doesn't (really) belong to you. It's a shared property between the hardware maker, the low level software producer (Qualcomm or Apple), the os owner (Google or Apple) and maybe finally you. Undocumented hardware plus closed source drivers for almost everything make all this possible.

> your smartphone doesn't (really) belong to you. Speak for yourself. Sent from my Librem 5.

Fair! But 0.000001% of the market is hardly a point.

Re: Right to root access

#418

Post by fsflover »

notorandit wrote: post #417
fsflover wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> your smartphone doesn't (really) belong to you. Speak for yourself. Sent from my Librem 5.

Fair! But 0.000001% of the market is hardly a point.

The problem with your comment is that you didn't suggest any solution.

Re: Right to root access

#419

Post by medhir »

anfilt wrote: post #411
medhir wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

thanks for sharing. the loss of property rights is an aspect I hadn’t considered… would be great to brainstorm further with an actual lawyer on these topics

I recommend reading that paper I posted in the other comment. It underscores how important the right of exclusion is.

will do, thank you!

Re: Right to root access

#420

Post by BytesOfProblems »

medhir wrote: post #331

OP here. Really glad to see others engaging with this topic, I wrote up this post because I felt like there wasn't anything out there that was advocating for unlocked hardware as part of the discussion on "right to repair". As someone that works in security, I fully understand the need for sane defaults that protect the average user. I even advocate in the article that we should keep these defaults in place for the m…

Thanks for this article, it was the most succinct way to describe the right to own and right to repair regressions I've noticed. I'm glad I can point to your article instead of trying to describe it myself. If you're looking for others advocating for this I know of Louis Rossmann. He also recently started a wiki on consumer protection that I hope to contribute and collaborate with to empower users.

https://wiki.rossmanngroup.com/index.php/How_to_help

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