Earlier quoted context omitted.
I remember learning about the probability of returning to the origin in a 2D random walk versus a 3D random walk when I took stochastic processes. After we proved with probability 1 you return to the origin in a 2D walk (and with probability 0 you return in 3D) my professor said "that's why you hand a drunk man the keys to a car and not an airplane when he leaves the bar". After checking wikipedia it looks like he ri…
That's interesting, about the probability being zero in 3D. Is this on an integer lattice? The source that cannot be cited on HN without loss of karma says that the probability of returning to the origin in Z^3 is approximately 0.34. I don't see how it could possibly be zero, even for reals, unless you're relying on the idea that the probability of any given real emerging from a uniform RNG is zero. That would seem t…
Mathematicians discover new way for spheres to 'kiss'
61–70 of 74 posts
Re: Mathematicians discover new way for spheres to 'kiss'
#62I'd really love to know what the mathematicians are actually doing when they work this stuff out? Is it all on computers now? Can they somehow visualize 24-dimensional-sphere-packings in their minds? Are they maybe rigorously checking results of a 'test function' that tells them they found a correct/optimal packing? I would love to know more about what the day-to-day work involved in this type of research actually wo…
> Is it all on computers now? Most modern math is certainly not "all on computers" and in general not even "mostly on computers". There are definitely proofs for things like testing large spaces exhaustively which are sped up by computers (see the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_color_theorem ) and definitely for things like visualization (probably one of the oldest uses of computers for math), but usually the rea…
Re: Mathematicians discover new way for spheres to 'kiss'
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
> etc. That's handwaving the answer just as you were getting to the crux of the matter. "Are mathematicians really visualising spheres with physical space between them" in higher dimensions than 3 (or maybe 4)? From the experience of some of the bigger minds in mathematics I met during my PhD, they don't actually visualize a practical representation of the sphere in this case since that would be untenable especially…
I have dyscalculia so I'm always studying how people who have "math minds" work, especially because I have an strong spacial visual thinking style, i thought i should be good at thinking about physical math. When I found out they're not visualizing the stuff but instead "visualized the equations together and imaging them into new ones" - I gave up my journey into math.
What stuck with me (written from memory, so might differ somewhat from the text):
In the introductory chapter, he describes mathematics as the science of patterns. E.g. number theory deals with patterns of numbers, calculus with patterns of change, statistics with patterns of uncertainty, and geometry with patterns of shapes and spaces..
Mathematical thinking involves abstraction: you identify the salient structures & quantities and describe their relationships, discarding irrelevant details. This is kind of like how, when playing chess, you can play with physical pieces or with a board on a computer screen - the pieces themselves don't matter, it's what each piece represents and the rules of the game that matters.
Now, these relationships and quantities need to be represented somehow: this could be a diagram or formulas using some notation. There are usually different options here. Different notations can highlight or obscure structures and relationships by emphasizing certain properties and de-emphasizing others. With a good notation, certain proofs that would otherwise be cumbersome might be very short. (Note also that notations typically have rules associated with them that govern how expressions can be manipulated - these rules typically correspond in some way to the things being represented and their properties.)
Now, roughly speaking, mathematicians may study various abstract structures and relationships without caring about how these correspond to the real world. They develop frameworks, notations and tools useful in dealing with these kinds of patterns. Physicists care about which patterns describe the world we live in, using the above mathematical tools to express theories that can make predictions that correspond to things we observe in the real world. As an engineer, I take a real-world problem and identify the salient features and physical theories that apply. I then convert the problem into an abstract representation, apply the mathematical tools (informed by the relevant physical theories), and develop a solution. I then translate the mathematical solution back into real-world terms.
One example of the above in action is how Riemann geometry, the geometry of curved surfaces, was created by developing a geometry where parallel lines can cross. Later, this geometry became integral in expressing the ideas of relativity.
This maps back to the idea of "making the invisible visible": Using the language of mathematics we can describe the invisible forces of aerodynamics that cause a 400 ton aircraft suspended in the air. For the latter, we can "run the numbers" on computers to visualize airflow and the subsequent forces acting on the airframe. At various stages of design, the level of abstraction might be very course (napkin calculations, discarding a lot of detail) or very fine (taking into account many different effects).
Lastly, regarding your post of 'When I found out they're not visualizing the stuff but instead "visualized the equations together and imaging them into new ones"':
Sometimes when studying relationships between physical things you notice that there are recurring patterns in the relationships themselves. For example, the same equations crop up in certain mechanical systems than does in certain electrical ones. (In the past there were mechanical computers that have now been replaced with the familiar electronic ones). With these higher order patterns, you don't necessarily care about physical things in the real world anymore. You apply the abstraction recursively: what are the salient parts of the relationships and how do they relate. This is roughly how you can generalize things from 2 dimensions to 3 and eventually n. Like learning a language, you begin to "see" the patterns as you immerse yourself in them.
Re: Mathematicians discover new way for spheres to 'kiss'
#64Earlier quoted context omitted.
Likewise! In higher dimensions, are the spheres just a visual metaphor based on the 3-dimensional problem, or are mathematicians really visualising spheres with physical space between them? Is that even a valid question, or does it just betray my inability to perceive higher dimensions? This is fascinating and I'm in awe of the people that do this work.
> just a visual metaphor It's not really a metaphor . An n-sphere is the set of all points that are the same distance away from the same centre, in (n+1)-dimensional space. That generalises perfectly well to any number of dimensions. In 1 dimension you get 2 points (0-sphere), in 2 dimensions you get a circle (1-sphere), in 3 dimensions you get a sphere (2-sphere), etc. EDIT: Also, if you slice a plane through a sphe…
If the boundary is included, it's a closed ball, otherwise it's an open ball.
So the sphere is the "skin", the ball is the whole thing.
A bit different than common usage.
Re: Mathematicians discover new way for spheres to 'kiss'
#65I'd really love to know what the mathematicians are actually doing when they work this stuff out? Is it all on computers now? Can they somehow visualize 24-dimensional-sphere-packings in their minds? Are they maybe rigorously checking results of a 'test function' that tells them they found a correct/optimal packing? I would love to know more about what the day-to-day work involved in this type of research actually wo…
I also never used a computer for anything other than latex.
[1] https://terrytao.wordpress.com/career-advice/theres-more-to-...
Re: Mathematicians discover new way for spheres to 'kiss'
#66Re: Mathematicians discover new way for spheres to 'kiss'
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
I remember learning about the probability of returning to the origin in a 2D random walk versus a 3D random walk when I took stochastic processes. After we proved with probability 1 you return to the origin in a 2D walk (and with probability 0 you return in 3D) my professor said "that's why you hand a drunk man the keys to a car and not an airplane when he leaves the bar". After checking wikipedia it looks like he ri…
That's interesting, about the probability being zero in 3D. Is this on an integer lattice? The source that cannot be cited on HN without loss of karma says that the probability of returning to the origin in Z^3 is approximately 0.34. I don't see how it could possibly be zero, even for reals, unless you're relying on the idea that the probability of any given real emerging from a uniform RNG is zero. That would seem t…
Random walks can be defined on continuous space and time as a probability distribution on functions R -> R^n (Brownian motion in n dimensions).
We can then ask whether Brownian motion beginning at the origin will ever revisit it i.e.
Given 2D Brownian motion X such that X(0)=(0,0), the probability that there exists t>0 such that X(t)=(0,0) is 1.
Given 3D Brownian motion X such that X(0)=(0,0,0), the probability that there exists t>0 such that X(t)=(0,0,0) is 0. (This is more clearly true when it doesn't begin at the origin, but it's almost certainly not at the origin at t=1, and you can divide the half open interval (0,1] into a countable number of intervals, each of which have 0 probability of passing through the origin.)
Random walks in 2D are space filling curves; random walks in 3D are not.
Re: Mathematicians discover new way for spheres to 'kiss'
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
Calculating 8x12 in my head relies on a trick / technique - they call it "chunking", I believe, in the Common Core maths curriculum that US parents get so angry about - that (I'm also in my 40s) was never demonstrated in schools when we were kids. (They tried to make me memorize the 12x table, which I couldn't, so I calculated it my way instead; took a little longer, but not so much that anyone caught on that I wasn'…
96, easy. Lets go, real time math tutoring in the hackernews comments, 2025 baby! :D
12 is made up of a 10 and a 2.
What's 8 x 10? 80.
What's 8 x 2? 16.
Add 'em up? 96, baby!
They teach you to do math on paper from right to left (ones column -> tens column, etc), I find chunking works best if you approach from left to right. Like, multiply the hundreds, then the tens (and add the extra digit to the hundreds-total you already derived), then the ones place (ditto).
It's limited by your short-term memory. I can do a single-digit times anything up to maybe five digits. Two-digits by two digits, mostly. Three-digits times three digits I don't have the working memory for.
Re: Mathematicians discover new way for spheres to 'kiss'
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
96, easy. Lets go, real time math tutoring in the hackernews comments, 2025 baby! :D
:-) 12 is made up of a 10 and a 2. What's 8 x 10? 80. What's 8 x 2? 16. Add 'em up? 96, baby! They teach you to do math on paper from right to left (ones column -> tens column, etc), I find chunking works best if you approach from left to right. Like, multiply the hundreds, then the tens (and add the extra digit to the hundreds-total you already derived), then the ones place (ditto). It's limited by your short-term m…
Thank you kindly for taking the time to teach me this! This thread has been one of the most useful things in a long ass time that's for sure. If I can ever be helpful to you, email is in the bio. :)
Re: Mathematicians discover new way for spheres to 'kiss'
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
I have dyscalculia so I'm always studying how people who have "math minds" work, especially because I have an strong spacial visual thinking style, i thought i should be good at thinking about physical math. When I found out they're not visualizing the stuff but instead "visualized the equations together and imaging them into new ones" - I gave up my journey into math.
Shortly after graduating as an engineer, I remember receiving much help regarding mathematical thinking from a book by Keith Devlin titled "The Language of Mathematics: Making the Invisible Visible". What stuck with me (written from memory, so might differ somewhat from the text): In the introductory chapter, he describes mathematics as the science of patterns. E.g. number theory deals with patterns of numbers, calcu…
Thank you again.