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I Won't Hire People Who Use Poor Grammar

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Re: I Won't Hire People Who Use Poor Grammar

#141

Post by rys »

irahul wrote: post #91
clarkevans wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? If you're writing software being able to produce clear documentation, write-ups, and other supplemental materials is quite important. In some cases, far more important than writing the actual code. In some hires I've used a descriptive writing assignment, where I ask the candidate to describe in words what they are looking at. You can learn much from these things, including: analysis skills, close looking, how…

> What? If you're writing software being able to produce clear documentation, write-ups, and other supplemental materials is quite important. In some cases, far more important than writing the actual code. You are taking it to the extreme where there are only 2 states: grammar purists and monkeys banging at keyboard. Someone who mixes up "its" and "it's" is capable of all the important stuff you listed. I mix "its" a…

So teach yourself not to make the mistakes because the next person in behind you working on your code might not know what you mean. If you know the difference it's just laziness to not communicate correctly.

As for periods outside of parentheses or not, that's syntax, not grammar. Your position here is weak. Good grammar is an indication that the person wielding the language at least takes care over what they're doing. A valuable trait for anyone, no matter what.

Re: I Won't Hire People Who Use Poor Grammar

#142

Post by hythloday »

bane wrote: post #87
irahul wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the answer is "yes" to both of these then I would assume that the people who pass the test are English majors with minors in Linguistics ;-) I don't know. I am not a native speaker, and am not an English major, but the answer is "yes" to both of them. Am I understanding you correctly that you are saying people can't make out active and passive between "I wrote a letter", "A letter was written by me"? "Who" and "…

"Whom" is also almost impossibly archaic and no longer considered part of modern English (having almost completely fallen out of usage around the start of the 20th century). It survives almost entirely in discussions of when to use it and almost never appears in modern writing except as a demonstration of what linguists call a "prestige form". "To whom did you give it?" vs. "Who did you give it to?" the latter is mor…

"Whom" is uncommon but by no means archaic in British English. I think it's just American English where the form has disappeared.

Re: I Won't Hire People Who Use Poor Grammar

#143

Post by maw »

jfoutz wrote: post #81
irahul wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saving the google search for people who don't know what an oxford comma is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma "Portugal, Spain, and France" (Oxford comma) "Portugal, Spain and France" (Not Oxford comma)

Even oxford discourages its use in public writing. http://www.ox.ac.uk/public_affairs/services_and_resources/st...

In one case I discourage it as well, because with it you can't write the funniest sentence ever composed: "I would like to thank my parents, Ayn Rand and God."

Otherwise, no strong opinion, although I usually use it myself.

Re: I Won't Hire People Who Use Poor Grammar

#144

Post by binxbolling »

hythloday wrote: post #126

Just to illustrate what a morass "poor grammar" is, I have, wearing my ex-professional proofreader hat, gone through the article to highlight the areas where I could find fault with the article for incorrect usage. People Who Use Poor Grammar should be: People Who Use Grammar Poorly. I have a "zero tolerance approach" should be: I have a zero-tolerance approach. people who mix up their itses should be: people who mix…

Oh, wow, someone nitpicking this guy's grammar — never saw that coming. What an unhelpful, predictable comment.

FWIW, I don't believe the author was talking about style guides at all anyway. Rather, he seems to be discussing general and very basic principles of English.

Re: I Won't Hire People Who Use Poor Grammar

#145

Post by kamaal »

bguthrie wrote: post #69
irahul wrote: post #17

My train of thoughts: > Everyone who applies for a position at either of my companies, iFixit or Dozuki, takes a mandatory grammar test. Whoa. Who do you think you are - google? What makes you think I am going to sit through your grammar test? If I am agreeing to your grammar test, either you are one of the most desirable places to work for(never heard of you), or economy is about to collapse and this is the only job…

This is very much a cultural fit test. If people who use poor grammar are going to drive the author nuts, then as the the person running the company I think he's perfectly justified in treating the candidate as a poor cultural fit. Additionally, as someone who employs writers as well as programmers, he might reasonably want to hire a programmer who is also a writer for the same reason that you'd want to hire a progra…

>>In short, I don't see the problem.

You don't see the problem because you look at it from a different direction.

Hiring good programmers is already hard enough. And you are likely to hire a bad programmer despite having them run through many programming interview sessions.

If you put all sorts of irrelevant criteria in between, you are likely to get people who have mastered the art of beating interviews by specializing in those criteria and diverting your attention from actual issues. Then we all go back and complain why its so hard to hire 'good' programmers.

Ultimately you get what you truly want.

Re: I Won't Hire People Who Use Poor Grammar

#146

Post by lifeisstillgood » 

  Dear Mr. von Neumann:
  With the greatest sorrow I have learned of your 
  illness.   
  The news came to me as quite unexpected. Morgenstern 
  already last summer told me of a bout of weakness you 
  once had
I am pretty sure that "already last summer" is poor English grammar. Tisk - this Godel character. Probably not worth a face to face.

http://rjlipton.wordpress.com/the-gdel-letter/

Re: I Won't Hire People Who Use Poor Grammar

#147

Post by kamaal »

nirvdrum wrote: post #85
irahul wrote: post #17

My train of thoughts: > Everyone who applies for a position at either of my companies, iFixit or Dozuki, takes a mandatory grammar test. Whoa. Who do you think you are - google? What makes you think I am going to sit through your grammar test? If I am agreeing to your grammar test, either you are one of the most desirable places to work for(never heard of you), or economy is about to collapse and this is the only job…

My issue is if you're unable to delineate between "it's" and "its" and it's the language you've been speaking natively for the past 25 years, I tend to doubt your ability to know what form of "const" to use in C++. At the very least, lack of proofreading suggests to me you might be rash with your code as well. Many disagree with me on this point of view, but routinely I've found that those that express themselves wel…

>>I've found that those that express themselves well in their native language write better code.

If this is true, then apart from US and UK people who write good code don't exist elsewhere???

Its difficult to take you seriously after reading this.

Re: I Won't Hire People Who Use Poor Grammar

#148

Post by leephillips »

einhverfr wrote: post #35
s_henry_paulson wrote: post #8

I think it's a fair, but just to simplify the argument: Poor grammar often is an artifact of a person being inexperienced with reading, writing, or both. Either that or a sign of an unwillingness to learn. Both of these are red flags when hiring. On the other hand, if your "zero tolerance" policy includes things like my usage of an oxford comma, chances are I don't want to work for you.

Dude, I so want to go there, apply, and write at the bottom of the page: "No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States."…

This is crystal-clear to me. What's the problem?

Re: I Won't Hire People Who Use Poor Grammar

#149

Post by urbanjunkie »

kamaal wrote: post #147
nirvdrum wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My issue is if you're unable to delineate between "it's" and "its" and it's the language you've been speaking natively for the past 25 years, I tend to doubt your ability to know what form of "const" to use in C++. At the very least, lack of proofreading suggests to me you might be rash with your code as well. Many disagree with me on this point of view, but routinely I've found that those that express themselves wel…

>>I've found that those that express themselves well in their native language write better code. If this is true, then apart from US and UK people who write good code don't exist elsewhere??? Its difficult to take you seriously after reading this.

Are the US and the UK the only countries that have people who can express themselves well in their native language?
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