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I Won't Hire People Who Use Poor Grammar

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Re: I Won't Hire People Who Use Poor Grammar

#121

As long as it's a reasonable test, you can argue its merits. But on a site of mine, I've gotten so many e-mails complaining that I say "the data is" instead of "the data are", or arguing that either "what year were you born in" or "in what year were you born" or "what year were you born" are variously wrong, and only one is right (but they all seem to disagree on which one). Beyond a certain point necessary for clear…

Most people don't know where the dividing lines are between grammar, spelling, writing style, and typographic style. Cf. several posts on this very thread.

Re: I Won't Hire People Who Use Poor Grammar

#122

Oh please. I can understand not hiring someone who communicates poorly. That makes sense. But grammar is just a set of arbitrary rules that some person or group of people decided were correct. It's like a secret handshake that lets people know you're part of some smart boys club (by and large it seems like men are the only ones who enjoy bitching about grammar). To me, it says, "I went to a good school system and was…

>it says "I went to a good school system and was taught correctly!"

I cant imagine how people can manage to make it past 25 without learning the majority of the rules simply through diffusion; eventually being exposed too enough correct righting that they know the rules without even realizing they know them.

There are subtle rules that you might see but not understand which aren't obtainable through such a method, and those are ones that Im willing to forgive. I'm sure I make some of them my self.

Irregardless errors in fundamental and extremely obvious rules such as this post say too me I have never consumed my first language in writing willfully and may possibly have zero attention to detail.

Tell me you didn't cringe - then tell me that the clients, colleagues or superiors of our prospective hiree won't.

A guy on my team uses "undue" instead of "undo" in commit messages. He's a nice guy and as much as I'd like to, I can't repair the damage that does to my image of him; "do", "due" and how "un-" works are first grade material at the latest. I simply cannot understand such a mistake.

Re: I Won't Hire People Who Use Poor Grammar

#123

Once again here on Hacker News we are talking about hiring procedures for technical companies. Many people find this topic interesting, because most of us have applied for a job at least once, and many of us have been in a position to recommend someone else for a job, or to hire someone for a job. From participants in earlier discussions I have learned about many useful references on the subject, which I have gathere…

META: Karl that's a tremendously massive comment. Wonder if it might be more useful as an online FAQ that you could link to? I know I lost interest about 3 sentences in, but it looks like some great material in there.

Just a thought.

Re: I Won't Hire People Who Use Poor Grammar

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you expand a bit on this? I've read his Cathedral and Bazaar book, and quite enjoyed it. I didn't realize there was a whole context that I should be aware of.

I would also like this explained. I know very little about who ESR is.

He was a "big deal" in the 90s, at least within hacker circles: wrote a lot of early free software / hacker culture reated stuff & was heavily involved in the rebranding of "free software" into a form that corporate suits could feel comfortable with ("open source") & selling that idea to a wider audience. See 'The Cathedral & the Bazaar' and other works.

He wasn't all talk: way back in the day, he worked on emacs & authored fetchmail (fair warning: reading the fetchmail source will make your ears bleed.)

More on his wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_S._Raymond

Re: I Won't Hire People Who Use Poor Grammar

#125
post #17

My train of thoughts: > Everyone who applies for a position at either of my companies, iFixit or Dozuki, takes a mandatory grammar test. Whoa. Who do you think you are - google? What makes you think I am going to sit through your grammar test? If I am agreeing to your grammar test, either you are one of the most desirable places to work for(never heard of you), or economy is about to collapse and this is the only job…

"Apart from my words, I have my intent, thoughts, opinions, facts. Words are a medium." But in written communication all those other things must be conveyed by your words. That's what writing is.

Re: I Won't Hire People Who Use Poor Grammar

#126
Just to illustrate what a morass "poor grammar" is, I have, wearing my ex-professional proofreader hat, gone through the article to highlight the areas where I could find fault with the article for incorrect usage.

People Who Use Poor Grammar should be: People Who Use Grammar Poorly.

I have a "zero tolerance approach" should be: I have a zero-tolerance approach.

people who mix up their itses should be: people who mix up its and it's.

passed over for a job — even if should be: passed over for a job—even if.

I don't point this out to be pedantic or to level at the author a tu quoque, but to point out that the idea of an "English grammar" that you can apply universally to writing is a myth. At best you can create a style guide, or follow an existing one. Expecting employees to be able to follow a known style guide is a reasonable request. Expecting them to score perfectly on a grammar test against a style guide they've never seen, without (presumably) computer assistance, when scored by someone who believes that they're capable of scoring a grammar test without recourse to existing style guides, is foolish, in exactly the same way that expecting a programmer to remember whether String.find take (needle, haystack) or (haystack, needle) as its arguments is a terrible interview technique.

Re: I Won't Hire People Who Use Poor Grammar

#127

Oh please. I can understand not hiring someone who communicates poorly. That makes sense. But grammar is just a set of arbitrary rules that some person or group of people decided were correct. It's like a secret handshake that lets people know you're part of some smart boys club (by and large it seems like men are the only ones who enjoy bitching about grammar). To me, it says, "I went to a good school system and was…

> But grammar is just a set of arbitrary rules that some person or group of people decided were correct. That's like saying the evolutionary tree of life is just a set of arbitrary rules someone came up with. It's not, it's a description of an existing evolved system. Grammar wasn't handed down from on high by an authority, it's an evolved, undirected cultural artifact. There were definitely influential actors, like…

Natural selection was not a conscious choice. There have been many choices in grammar that have been decided almost arbitrarily by higher authorities. Sure, many of these choices may have been based on their own experiences, but they were not necessarily the best choices. They were decided by a small group of individuals, but again, the choice was not strictly a natural selection of grammar rules. Language more often follows this pattern than grammar because people are more likely to argue over grammar than language itself, excluding etymology, of course.

Re: I Won't Hire People Who Use Poor Grammar

#128
post #81
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saving the google search for people who don't know what an oxford comma is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma "Portugal, Spain, and France" (Oxford comma) "Portugal, Spain and France" (Not Oxford comma)

Even oxford discourages its use in public writing. http://www.ox.ac.uk/public_affairs/services_and_resources/st...

I prefer to use oxford comma where I'm writing a long list of items, and those items contain sets within themselves.

For instance, while listing computer brands that include Dell, HP, Acer, Toshiba, Alienware, Compaq and ASUS, I wouldn't use the oxford comma. But if I'm listing out speaker brands like Bose, Klipsch, JBL, Bang and Olufsen, and Altec Lansing, I think oxford comma helps to clarify the meaning intended.

Re: I Won't Hire People Who Use Poor Grammar

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like a regional dialect. I've never heard it pronounced that way in the northeast US at the very least.

I don't think anyone pronounces it that way, because what everyone is saying is the word that is spelt "maintenance". If you were to actually pronounce the word that is spelt "maintainance", that is how it would be pronounced, with the stress on the "ain".

Bah. My bad. I confused the parties in the thread. I'm sorry for the noise.
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