I Won't Hire People Who Use Poor Grammar • Hacker News Board

Re: I Won't Hire People Who Use Poor Grammar

#71

Post by clarkevans » Fri, Jul 20, 2012, 1:41 PM UTC

irahul wrote: post #61

Sunlis wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's so bad about a grammar test? Any competent person (excluding extenuating circumstances: dyslexia, etc.) should be able to pass a simple grammar test. It's not some hardship that you have to study for or anything.

It's more like I am applying for a programming job, and I don't see why I have to subject myself to your whims. Consider that instead of grammar, I am advocating I will only hire people who can do 50 push-ups. After all, what can I expect from people who are sloppy towards something as important their own bodies. What's so bad about 50 push-ups? Any fit person(excluding extenuating circumstances) should be able to do…

What? If you're writing software being able to produce clear documentation, write-ups, and other supplemental materials is quite important. In some cases, far more important than writing the actual code.

In some hires I've used a descriptive writing assignment, where I ask the candidate to describe in words what they are looking at. You can learn much from these things, including: analysis skills, close looking, how they think, and, well, how well they would document their software.

Re: I Won't Hire People Who Use Poor Grammar

#72

Post by einhverfr » Fri, Jul 20, 2012, 1:41 PM UTC

calinet6 wrote: post #26

einhverfr wrote: post #10

Now I want to know the following: 1) Will he hire people who can't tell active voice from passive? (Check out the Language Log archives for how many grammar and style nazis can't tell the difference.) 2) Does he require that you can tell who and whom apart and use them in their correct cases? If the answer is "yes" to both of these then I would assume that the people who pass the test are English majors with minors i…

Why not? A friend of mine was an English major who went on to do programming for several startups. He's still a programmer. It's an incredibly fitting path, especially for him. He's a stickler for detail and writes beautiful code.

My point was that it becomes a small pool of potential hires. I was a history major with a love of natural language, btw.

Re: I Won't Hire People Who Use Poor Grammar

#73

Post by mseebach » Fri, Jul 20, 2012, 1:42 PM UTC

impendia wrote: post #28

Along these lines, let me ask advice from HN. I am buying a home in need of some repairs, and my real estate agent recommended a contractor whom he has personally used a lot. The contractor inspected the home and prepared a competitively priced five-figure estimate. From his estimate: "These conditions, if left to deteriate [sic] further, will make the building unsafe. ... The following recommended work is described…

Hire him, but look out for lack of attention to detail.

In my last job they talked a lot about the difference between being "done" and being "done done". The latter requires significant attention to detail, and especially a lack of "it's someones else's problem"-attitude.

While the substance of the work would likely be done satisfactory and on time, wouldn't you want him to do the equivalent of spending 30 seconds reading the letter over once, clicking on the red squiggly lines? If those 30 seconds are not invested when writing an estimate, is he going to get spend 30 minutes re-fitting the foo to the bar, so it's perfect rather than just "done"?

Re: I Won't Hire People Who Use Poor Grammar

#74

Post by baak » Fri, Jul 20, 2012, 1:43 PM UTC

You could write a similar article about why you only hire people who eat with their elbows off the table, and it would probably be just as meaningful. I agree that the basics are important, but I disagree that it matters to the extent you're suggesting.

Re: I Won't Hire People Who Use Poor Grammar

#75

Post by pbhjpbhj » Fri, Jul 20, 2012, 1:43 PM UTC

drx wrote: post #18

I will. I don't give a shit about someone's grammar if they're good at what they do.

If they're good at what they do and not an imbecile then couldn't you give them a lesson or two in grammar. I was never taught English grammar at school - French and Russian grammar but no English grammar beyond learning a poem about it at primary school. I was educated in England, English is my first language.

Re: I Won't Hire People Who Use Poor Grammar

#76

Post by raganwald » Fri, Jul 20, 2012, 1:43 PM UTC

  Applicants who don't think writing is important are
  likely to think lots of other (important) things also
  aren't important,

"Citation needed." Or to put it another way, what is the difference between this statement and:

  Applicants who don't think wearing a tie and polished
  brogues to an interview are important are likely to think
  lots of other (important) things also aren't important

Re: I Won't Hire People Who Use Poor Grammar

#77

Post by irahul » Fri, Jul 20, 2012, 1:44 PM UTC

dedward wrote: post #50

irahul wrote: post #17

My train of thoughts: > Everyone who applies for a position at either of my companies, iFixit or Dozuki, takes a mandatory grammar test. Whoa. Who do you think you are - google? What makes you think I am going to sit through your grammar test? If I am agreeing to your grammar test, either you are one of the most desirable places to work for(never heard of you), or economy is about to collapse and this is the only job…

It's not a sneak test - it's an actual grammar test. If you are asked to document something, and you can't observe basic english grammar, I see a problem too. Zero tolerance may be taking it a bit too far, but one would imagine he can tell the difference between a typo in a big test and actual fundamental lack of knowledge of the grammar you should have learned by the time you were 14. (Yes, the double space after th…

> (Yes, the double space after the period is a built in habit from typing class, and a debatable item in the computer age, but nobody seems to care one way or the other.)

Well, it does serve a purpose in the computer age - grepping for sentence ending.

Re: I Won't Hire People Who Use Poor Grammar

#78

Post by samwillis » Fri, Jul 20, 2012, 1:44 PM UTC

> Extenuating circumstances aside (dyslexia, ....

I'm Dyslexic and if I was applying for a job (obviously not to be a writer) and was told that there was a grammar test but I didn't need to take it, or it didn't count, because I am Dyslexic I would probably walk away. How do I know that they aren't going to hold my Dyslexia against me just as they would someone who has bad grammar? What's the difference between bad grammar and Dyslexia (obviously I know the difference ) the person you tested may have never been diagnosed with Dyslexia.

Re: I Won't Hire People Who Use Poor Grammar

#79

Post by hkolek » Fri, Jul 20, 2012, 1:44 PM UTC

einhverfr wrote: post #29

espinchi wrote: post #7

I do the same: unstructured e-mails, poor grammar and, in general, bad writing style make me reject applicants instantaneously. However, I wonder if I'm letting good candidates go just because of my grammar nazism. How do you (folks in HN with more experience at hiring) feel about this?

In my view the ability to structure communications is important. I don't think that's the same as being a grammar nazi. For example if you have a zero tolerance policy for it's vs its, or for commas making things confusing, the framers of the US Constitution would fail the test. Not only is 'it's' is used as a possessive but try to parse this: "No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United State…

I don't know, I don't think your example sentence is particularly hard to parse, and I'm not a native speaker. But I have to say, even as a non-native speaker, I just can't understand whats hard about "its" and "it's" and "their", "there" and "they're" and it makes me cringe every time to read such mistakes (as does confusing "loose" with "lose"). That said, I don't expect perfection but if I read a text that is littered with such mistakes and makes them consistently I won't read it because, for me, it's arduous to correct all those mistakes in my mind while reading.

Re: I Won't Hire People Who Use Poor Grammar

#80

Post by tomflack » Fri, Jul 20, 2012, 1:45 PM UTC

irahul wrote: post #36

philbarr wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's amazing how many times I see the word "devloper". Maybe having to type "e" twice so close together is what causes the typo..?

I think it's more phonetic in nature. That isn't a mistake you will see often in India. We say all letters loud and clear:)

Hmm I can't think of an accent that removed the second E when saying developer. In my own accent it is quite accentuated. "de-vel-oper"

Which accents did you have in mind?