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LLM based agents as Dungeon Masters

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Re: LLM based agents as Dungeon Masters

#71

Post by lowsong »

I am baffled as to why anyone would want this, or anything like it.

Sure, it's a cool technical demo. But... the point of D&D is a social game played with others. Even if you play a D&D-like video game such as Baldur's Gate 3 (which I'd argue is a fundamentally different experience to playing a tabletop RPG anyway), you're experiencing a world and a story that someone else has crafted.

What's the point of replacing that social interaction, or that connection to another person's creative vision through their art, with an LLM? What value can it ever provide?

Re: LLM based agents as Dungeon Masters

#72

Post by mog_dev »

lowsong wrote: post #71

I am baffled as to why anyone would want this, or anything like it. Sure, it's a cool technical demo. But... the point of D&D is a social game played with others. Even if you play a D&D-like video game such as Baldur's Gate 3 (which I'd argue is a fundamentally different experience to playing a tabletop RPG anyway), you're experiencing a world and a story that someone else has crafted. What's the point of replacing t…

I imagine for people like me who do not have anyone nearby willing to play D&D

Re: LLM based agents as Dungeon Masters

#73

Post by Kiro »

lowsong wrote: post #71

I am baffled as to why anyone would want this, or anything like it. Sure, it's a cool technical demo. But... the point of D&D is a social game played with others. Even if you play a D&D-like video game such as Baldur's Gate 3 (which I'd argue is a fundamentally different experience to playing a tabletop RPG anyway), you're experiencing a world and a story that someone else has crafted. What's the point of replacing t…

I would love a fully generated D&D campaign where I just input some parameters, like a writing prompt, and get a tailored LLM Dungeon Master organizing it. Whether it's the result of someone's creative vision or not is irrelevant to me.

Re: LLM based agents as Dungeon Masters

#74

Post by samwiseg »

mog_dev wrote: post #72
lowsong wrote: post #71

I am baffled as to why anyone would want this, or anything like it. Sure, it's a cool technical demo. But... the point of D&D is a social game played with others. Even if you play a D&D-like video game such as Baldur's Gate 3 (which I'd argue is a fundamentally different experience to playing a tabletop RPG anyway), you're experiencing a world and a story that someone else has crafted. What's the point of replacing t…

I imagine for people like me who do not have anyone nearby willing to play D&D

Right, but why not play BG3? You know that an LLM is not going to provide any meaningful narrative, or craft a thought provoking story.

Re: LLM based agents as Dungeon Masters

#75

Post by lowsong »

mog_dev wrote: post #72
lowsong wrote: post #71

I am baffled as to why anyone would want this, or anything like it. Sure, it's a cool technical demo. But... the point of D&D is a social game played with others. Even if you play a D&D-like video game such as Baldur's Gate 3 (which I'd argue is a fundamentally different experience to playing a tabletop RPG anyway), you're experiencing a world and a story that someone else has crafted. What's the point of replacing t…

I imagine for people like me who do not have anyone nearby willing to play D&D

I've been in a weekly D&D game for over a decade. I don't keep playing it because of the game of D&D (certainly not, I could rant for a long time about the game's myriad shortcomings across many editions). I play it because of the friends I play it with, because of the social connection that exists in and around the game.

To play a tabletop RPG without that isn't the same thing, and to play with LLM is bankrupt of meaning. You'd be better off picking up one of those old-school choose your own adventure books or a video game like BG3. At least those were written by someone with intent, at least there's meaning in the story and setting. Or, finding an online group.

Re: LLM based agents as Dungeon Masters

#76

Post by giantrobot »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #56
2099miles wrote: post #3

This is so interesting that people want this. This is beyond the guy saying “people don’t like making music so we made ai so it’s easier and faster to just prompt it to make music” . Like in my experience the best part of d&d is the dungeon master who knows their friends making a story and details specifically for fun and the fun of the group. And the interactions between players and the dm is where I derived the mos…

Two reasons: 1) "LLM DM" isn't merely mean substituting for human DM in a D&D session. The same capability can be used as a component in a video game, to breathe life into the game world, have it interactively react and evolve along with the player. EDIT: Take a game like Rimworld, that relies on a scripted RNG dubbed a "storyteller", to decide what random events to hit you with and how hard. It's fun early on, but i…

> An LLM DM is exactly what could add that story, make overcoming challenges feel meaningful and allow for player decisions to actually impact the world deeply.

No it's not. I don't think you're going to find an LLM with a large enough context window to have a meaningfully involving story spanning multiple sessions.

An LLM isn't going to craft a story element tailored to a character, or more importantly, an individual player. It's not going to understand Sam couldn't make last week's session. An LLM also doesn't really understand the game rules and isn't going to be able to adjudicate house rules based on fun factor.

LLMs can be great tools for gaming but I think their value as a game master is limited. They'll be no better a game master than a MadLibs book.

Re: LLM based agents as Dungeon Masters

#77

Post by thom »

klik99 wrote: post #60
JohnMakin wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is so interesting that people want this I love being a DM but it is no mystery to me. Being a DM is a lot of work. And occasionally, a lot of annoyance. You not only have to facilitate (and sometimes create from scratch) an engaging story that keeps people coming back, you have to wrangle busy schedules and personalities that is often annoying. Lots of times you'll have a bunch of people willing to play, but n…

I think the previous posters point was that an LLM DM is boring due to it's generality and lacks the specific quirks of having a human DM with their own viewpoint and understanding of the players, which I agree with. I did some experiments with earlier ChatGPT models for world building and DMing and found it to be so boring, getting it to do anything interesting or giving any kind of push back was so hard. Since they…

Yep, my experience using ChatGPT as a helper is very good. It can very quickly cook up a custom monster, give it relevant stats, and create some flavourful actions and attacks to make it unique. Lately I've been trying to hook this up to D&D Beyond, as it's just some fairly simple POST payloads. If I can get to the point where I can describe a vague encounter, and run it in the Beyond encounter tracker with zero effort, that would be amazing, and a lifesaver when the party goes off and does nutty stuff. Beyond that, its story ideas are fairly generic but fine if you really have no time, and it can do a decent job of the occasional flowery monologue if you need it.

Re: LLM based agents as Dungeon Masters

#78

Post by enasterosophes »

lowsong wrote: post #71

I am baffled as to why anyone would want this, or anything like it. Sure, it's a cool technical demo. But... the point of D&D is a social game played with others. Even if you play a D&D-like video game such as Baldur's Gate 3 (which I'd argue is a fundamentally different experience to playing a tabletop RPG anyway), you're experiencing a world and a story that someone else has crafted. What's the point of replacing t…

I've found chatgpt useful for trying out D&D settings that I don't normally get to experience in my usual group. It loses the plot after a while, but it's enough for me to figure out whether I dig the setting enough that I would want to pitch it for a real game.

Re: LLM based agents as Dungeon Masters

#79

Post by enasterosophes »

lowsong wrote: post #75
mog_dev wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine for people like me who do not have anyone nearby willing to play D&D

I've been in a weekly D&D game for over a decade. I don't keep playing it because of the game of D&D (certainly not, I could rant for a long time about the game's myriad shortcomings across many editions). I play it because of the friends I play it with, because of the social connection that exists in and around the game. To play a tabletop RPG without that isn't the same thing, and to play with LLM is bankrupt of me…

Would it be fair to say that you also don't appreciate solo rpgs?

Re: LLM based agents as Dungeon Masters

#80

Post by soneca »

lowsong wrote: post #71

I am baffled as to why anyone would want this, or anything like it. Sure, it's a cool technical demo. But... the point of D&D is a social game played with others. Even if you play a D&D-like video game such as Baldur's Gate 3 (which I'd argue is a fundamentally different experience to playing a tabletop RPG anyway), you're experiencing a world and a story that someone else has crafted. What's the point of replacing t…

I am not interested in this, but an AI DM that allow human players to play would keep the social aspect. Since being DM is a higher threshold of knowledge and time investment, this could unblock a social gathering, rather than substituting it.

Also, if it doesn’t try to keep the story to strict guardrails, the creativity and story creation would come essentially from the human players.

I don’t think those arguments are enough to make me want to use it, but I see the point and possible interesting use.

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