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LLM based agents as Dungeon Masters

studenttheses.uu.nl

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Re: LLM based agents as Dungeon Masters

#61
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this isn't a thing that anyone would truly want. Citation needed. > A purely AI generated or controlled world would have no constraints That's a shitty AI then. Make a better one. I can play 2000 Vampire: The Masquerade games with 2000 different groups. They will each be different, but they will also be each distinctly Vampire: The Masquerade ttrpg games. If the AI you are thinking about can't do the same, then thi…

> Citation needed. Lol, a citation of what? This is my opinion statement and the rest of my post follows it. > That's a shitty AI then. Make a better one. I can play 2000 Vampire: The Masquerade games with 2000 different groups. They will each be different, but they will also be each distinctly Vampire: The Masquerade ttrpg games. If the AI you are thinking about can't do the same, then think of a better AI. Sure, I'…

> citation of what?

Citation that nobody wants what you described? The sentence which I was quoting.

> This is my opinion statement

Your opinon can be that "I don't want this." "nobody wants this" is refers to things outside of your head. Do you see the difference between the two?

> it certainly isn't anything I've written in my post.

Your post is suffused with defeatism. The 3 "no"s it contains are: "nobody wants this", "with current technology this cannot be fun" and an implicit "we can't make the next technology". I believe each of those are wrong, and I'm calling you out on the attitude.

Re: LLM based agents as Dungeon Masters

#62

This is so interesting that people want this. This is beyond the guy saying “people don’t like making music so we made ai so it’s easier and faster to just prompt it to make music” . Like in my experience the best part of d&d is the dungeon master who knows their friends making a story and details specifically for fun and the fun of the group. And the interactions between players and the dm is where I derived the mos…

> This is so interesting that people want this I love being a DM but it is no mystery to me. Being a DM is a lot of work. And occasionally, a lot of annoyance. You not only have to facilitate (and sometimes create from scratch) an engaging story that keeps people coming back, you have to wrangle busy schedules and personalities that is often annoying. Lots of times you'll have a bunch of people willing to play, but n…

I tend to agree. I used to run Call of Cthulhu in high school, and there was a lot of preparation involved in running a good scenario. Some people are good at winging it and making stuff up as they go along. I never was. The best experiences for me and my players was always when I'd meticulously designed my own scenario, or used a store-bought scenario and read it thoroughly. Either way, hours of prep.

I would love to have an AI as an assistant Dungeon Master (or game master, or Keeper, or what have you). That is, one person in a group of players maintains the role of a master storyteller, but the AI is ready to fill in details or suggest ways to get the players back on track. This would probably be tedious if you're interacting with the LLM entirely through text, and having to manually keep it up to date with the story. But it could work well if you have a model that understands spoken language listening in on the game and generating cool images and making private suggestions to the game master.

Re: LLM based agents as Dungeon Masters

#63
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Citation needed. Lol, a citation of what? This is my opinion statement and the rest of my post follows it. > That's a shitty AI then. Make a better one. I can play 2000 Vampire: The Masquerade games with 2000 different groups. They will each be different, but they will also be each distinctly Vampire: The Masquerade ttrpg games. If the AI you are thinking about can't do the same, then think of a better AI. Sure, I'…

> citation of what? Citation that nobody wants what you described? The sentence which I was quoting. > This is my opinion statement Your opinon can be that "I don't want this." "nobody wants this" is refers to things outside of your head. Do you see the difference between the two? > it certainly isn't anything I've written in my post. Your post is suffused with defeatism. The 3 "no"s it contains are: "nobody wants th…

Ok, then what advances are being made in AI technology in this gaming that lends you such confidence? Care to make any citations yourself here? I don't really care what you think of my attitude, nor does it make for productive discussion or good posting.

Re: LLM based agents as Dungeon Masters

#64
Last year, during a period of recovery, I hosted a ChatGPT game with my nieces and newphew. I played the role of being a bride between them and the LLM. I read aloud the text, and translated their actions into queries.

With slight nudges, GPT performed well. It excelled at NPC dialog, location description, and to some extent improvisation. However, eventually the campaign fell apart on session four or five. There was a disagreement between the players over exactly how many maps we had acquired. As you know, answering this question is a needle in a haystack problem and asking the LLM proved to illicit conflicting responses. It ultimately led to me concluding that pausing the campaign was the right choice and accepting that we all still had an amazing time up to that point.

Which leads me back to the questions in the paper: > We believe that with the above evaluation methods we can try to answer the following questions: • How consistent is a LLM Agent in its generative dialogue? • How well can a LLM Agent keep a user engaged in a narrative plot? • How creative is a LLM Agent when generating complex story driven narratives?

None of these are exactly relevant to my personal experience running a TTRPG game using ChatGPT and what makes it succeed or fail. What would make such a system an improvement is being able to store and retrieve facts about players (HP, stats, inventory), NPCs(names, location, history), and Places(items, descriptions, inhabitants) in order to solve the needs-haystack problem. Creating a world ontology and being able to CRUD facts against such an ontology would be a game changer(literally).

Despite the ultimate demise of the game, the experiment was a success. I'd highly encourage anyone with a laptop, a handful of dice, and a group of interested friends to give a shot. It's fun, memorable, and a unique way to pass the time and bond.

Re: LLM based agents as Dungeon Masters

#65

Last year, during a period of recovery, I hosted a ChatGPT game with my nieces and newphew. I played the role of being a bride between them and the LLM. I read aloud the text, and translated their actions into queries. With slight nudges, GPT performed well. It excelled at NPC dialog, location description, and to some extent improvisation. However, eventually the campaign fell apart on session four or five. There was…

> What would make such a system an improvement is being able to store and retrieve facts about players (HP, stats, inventory), NPCs(names, location, history), and Places(items, descriptions, inhabitants) in order to solve the needs-haystack problem. Creating a world ontology and being able to CRUD facts against such an ontology would be a game changer(literally).

Curiously, those are the exact things LLMs can't do well, and are not really supposed to. This is all stuff you (or an external system) should keep track of and supply to LLM in context "just in time". This is to say, LLMs are an important component, but alone they won't work. They need their tools :).

In short, LLMs are pure "system 1", the complete solution still needs "system 2", which fortunately is more amenable to classical computing approaches.

Re: LLM based agents as Dungeon Masters

#66
I made something like this to let people explore the lore of my game. It has an AI act like a dungeon master as you play through a story. You can try it for free at: https://orbsccg.com/adventures

The main game is a strategic collectible card game, but the “adventure mode” is just for fun AI-powered stories.

Re: LLM based agents as Dungeon Masters

#67
This is a student thesis, which doesn't mean it's bad, but is worth keeping in mind. I see that their control group size was three people (in three different sessions), but I don't see how many people they ran through the AI part of the experiment.

I was wondering the other day whether there were good services for running tabletop games over AI. I don't know about good, because I haven't tried them, but there are certainly a few products like this today. Given that ChatGPT plus some fine-tuning was comparable to a human GM in this experiment, I'd be interested in another experiment that looked at whether these products (which charge more money) offer any benefit over just using ChatGPT. For them to be better than ChatGPT, it seems like they'd almost have to be better than a human GM to be worth the money.

Re: LLM based agents as Dungeon Masters

#68
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> citation of what? Citation that nobody wants what you described? The sentence which I was quoting. > This is my opinion statement Your opinon can be that "I don't want this." "nobody wants this" is refers to things outside of your head. Do you see the difference between the two? > it certainly isn't anything I've written in my post. Your post is suffused with defeatism. The 3 "no"s it contains are: "nobody wants th…

Ok, then what advances are being made in AI technology in this gaming that lends you such confidence? Care to make any citations yourself here? I don't really care what you think of my attitude, nor does it make for productive discussion or good posting.

> Care to make any citations yourself here?

Happily. I know you are wrong on the "nobody wants this" statement because I want it. With a sweeping generic statement like "nobody wants this" a single example is enough to disprove it. There you have it.

> what advances are being made in AI technology in this gaming that lends you such confidence?

There is a ton of experimenting going on. AI Dungeon and Deep Realms are the two obvious ones. I don't think anyone has found the golden solution yet, but that is also not evidence that no such thing exists.

Re: LLM based agents as Dungeon Masters

#69
Like others, I don't really understand why anyone would desire this.

D&D is a social activity, why would I want to remove the most core human component of a social activity. It'd be like someone who enjoys going to a sports bar with friends deciding they'd rather sit next to a vending machine.

Re: LLM based agents as Dungeon Masters

#70

This is so interesting that people want this. This is beyond the guy saying “people don’t like making music so we made ai so it’s easier and faster to just prompt it to make music” . Like in my experience the best part of d&d is the dungeon master who knows their friends making a story and details specifically for fun and the fun of the group. And the interactions between players and the dm is where I derived the mos…

I largely see it as the digital next step up from something like the Mythic Game Master Emulator, which is popular for solo play and things like trying out new systems.

And there's quite a lot of us that like to play but because of life commitments, getting together with a group on a regular schedule is difficult.

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