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LLM based agents as Dungeon Masters

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Re: LLM based agents as Dungeon Masters

#41

Post by michaelcampbell »

moralestapia wrote: post #37
2099miles wrote: post #3

This is so interesting that people want this. This is beyond the guy saying “people don’t like making music so we made ai so it’s easier and faster to just prompt it to make music” . Like in my experience the best part of d&d is the dungeon master who knows their friends making a story and details specifically for fun and the fun of the group. And the interactions between players and the dm is where I derived the mos…

>This is so interesting that people want this. Go outside. There's people for everything.

He said it was interesting, not baffling.

Re: LLM based agents as Dungeon Masters

#42

Post by wintermutestwin »

2099miles wrote: post #3

This is so interesting that people want this. This is beyond the guy saying “people don’t like making music so we made ai so it’s easier and faster to just prompt it to make music” . Like in my experience the best part of d&d is the dungeon master who knows their friends making a story and details specifically for fun and the fun of the group. And the interactions between players and the dm is where I derived the mos…

I am an “everything is custom tailored to my players” DM and I use LLMs quite a lot as an assistant. Speeding up prep time is always welcome. Using an LLM directly as a DM? Oh hell no.

Also, I ran a session over Zoom and their AI summary was so useful!

Re: LLM based agents as Dungeon Masters

#43

Post by PaulHoule »

JohnMakin wrote: post #25
2099miles wrote: post #3

This is so interesting that people want this. This is beyond the guy saying “people don’t like making music so we made ai so it’s easier and faster to just prompt it to make music” . Like in my experience the best part of d&d is the dungeon master who knows their friends making a story and details specifically for fun and the fun of the group. And the interactions between players and the dm is where I derived the mos…

> This is so interesting that people want this I love being a DM but it is no mystery to me. Being a DM is a lot of work. And occasionally, a lot of annoyance. You not only have to facilitate (and sometimes create from scratch) an engaging story that keeps people coming back, you have to wrangle busy schedules and personalities that is often annoying. Lots of times you'll have a bunch of people willing to play, but n…

Personally I can't stand to run a D&D game as players take it all too seriously.

I will run Toon, Call of Cthulhu or Paranoia any day, the latter without a scenario as I can kill off their all their clones in my very dangerous Alpha Complex and have them rolling on the floor laughing the whole time with a help of a stack of prerolled character sheets and some random encounter tables. (I'd expect an LLM to be able to do the same)

Contrast that to the famous Bloodstone campaign which is the pinnacle of D&D scenarios but can't really be challenging to the players because players have to win over and over again if you're going to use most of the material.

Re: LLM based agents as Dungeon Masters

#44

Post by michaelcampbell »

prettyblocks wrote: post #8
2099miles wrote: post #3

This is so interesting that people want this. This is beyond the guy saying “people don’t like making music so we made ai so it’s easier and faster to just prompt it to make music” . Like in my experience the best part of d&d is the dungeon master who knows their friends making a story and details specifically for fun and the fun of the group. And the interactions between players and the dm is where I derived the mos…

I think it's more about the challenge/curiosity of creating the implementation. I'm not sure these AI driven text-RPGs will find long term audiences.

> I think it's more about the challenge/curiosity of creating the implementation.

Totally this, at least for me, in some circumstances.

TOU's be damned, I've written bots for some online games I've played, not because I want the XP or money or whatever that the bot could do without me working for it, but rather because I found writing the bots fun and engaging.

Before anyone gets in an uproar, I didn't sell them, nor any of the in-game resources gained from them. I was watching them basically all the time, because that's what I was there for - to see my creation work. And I purposely didn't interfere with other "real" players.

Re: LLM based agents as Dungeon Masters

#47

Post by foobarian »

airstrike wrote: post #4
2099miles wrote: post #3

This is so interesting that people want this. This is beyond the guy saying “people don’t like making music so we made ai so it’s easier and faster to just prompt it to make music” . Like in my experience the best part of d&d is the dungeon master who knows their friends making a story and details specifically for fun and the fun of the group. And the interactions between players and the dm is where I derived the mos…

Some people don't have friends they can play with :sadge:

This. At home it's me and my one kid, and having an additional party as a DM would be priceless.

Re: LLM based agents as Dungeon Masters

#48

Post by krisoft »

JohnMakin wrote: post #30
pmichaud wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are a step on the road to fully responsive rpg worlds though, which don’t have to be text based.

It's been written at length here and elsewhere by game devs, but this isn't a thing that anyone would truly want. A purely AI generated or controlled world would have no constraints, and be fundamentally untestable - games aren't really games unless they have constraints. Even the 'purest' sandboxes have some kind of constraint buried within them, and I think you'd find an RPG of this type extremely boring, at least…

> this isn't a thing that anyone would truly want.

Citation needed.

> A purely AI generated or controlled world would have no constraints

That's a shitty AI then. Make a better one. I can play 2000 Vampire: The Masquerade games with 2000 different groups. They will each be different, but they will also be each distinctly Vampire: The Masquerade ttrpg games. If the AI you are thinking about can't do the same, then think of a better AI.

> at least with current technology.

Well. Who is the group who will make the "next technology"? Should we work on that, or just lay down on the ground and wait for it to fall from the sky? Testing what are the limits of the current technology (as done in the paper we are talking about here) is the way to get there. Or at least to systematically answer the question of where and what are we lacking.

Re: LLM based agents as Dungeon Masters

#49

Post by jgalt212 »

empath75 wrote: post #13

The main problem with doing this on chatgpt is that it is _relentlessly_ cheerful and it's almost impossible for it to produce any kind of interpersonal drama or threat or danger. I tried to get it to run space opera about a diplomatic mission to a newly recontacted planet, full of Game of Thrones-style intrigue and plotting and scheming, and it was like playing with a cheerily optimistic new UN intern that completel…

The researchers encountered this.

> raised by 3 out of 7 players was the perceived lack of danger for their characters. Participants noted that the gameplay did not present sufficient threats or challenges, which diminished the sense of urgency and excitement typically associated with D&D adventures.

Re: LLM based agents as Dungeon Masters

#50

Post by JohnMakin »

krisoft wrote: post #48
JohnMakin wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's been written at length here and elsewhere by game devs, but this isn't a thing that anyone would truly want. A purely AI generated or controlled world would have no constraints, and be fundamentally untestable - games aren't really games unless they have constraints. Even the 'purest' sandboxes have some kind of constraint buried within them, and I think you'd find an RPG of this type extremely boring, at least…

> this isn't a thing that anyone would truly want. Citation needed. > A purely AI generated or controlled world would have no constraints That's a shitty AI then. Make a better one. I can play 2000 Vampire: The Masquerade games with 2000 different groups. They will each be different, but they will also be each distinctly Vampire: The Masquerade ttrpg games. If the AI you are thinking about can't do the same, then thi…

> Citation needed.

Lol, a citation of what? This is my opinion statement and the rest of my post follows it.

> That's a shitty AI then. Make a better one. I can play 2000 Vampire: The Masquerade games with 2000 different groups. They will each be different, but they will also be each distinctly Vampire: The Masquerade ttrpg games. If the AI you are thinking about can't do the same, then think of a better AI.

Sure, I'll get right on that.

> Well. Who is the group who will make the "next technology"? Should we work on that, or just lay down on the ground and wait for it to fall from the sky? Testing what are the limits of the current technology (as done in the paper we are talking about here) is the way to get there. Or at least to systematically answer the question of where and what are we lacking.

I'm really unsure of what or who you are addressing here but it certainly isn't anything I've written in my post.

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