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Spain proposes 100% tax on homes bought by non-EU residents

theguardian.com

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Re: Spain proposes 100% tax on homes bought by non-EU residents

#191

Post by JumpCrisscross »

defrost wrote: post #174
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He'll also admit it's not just the Russians but many others also Limassol is friendly to Russians. If you're American, the go-to is Ireland, though Luxembourg is trying to eat their lunch. (If you're Chinese, Hungary and Poland.)

In short, there are significant business opportunities for EU citizens willing to front an EU company for other non EU parties.

> significant business opportunities for EU citizens willing to front an EU company for other non EU parties

I'm describing plain-vanilla incorporation or the buying of an incorporated business. No fronting.

Re: Spain proposes 100% tax on homes bought by non-EU residents

#192

Post by Gvaskas »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #182
klipt wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could also argue that every Spaniard moving from the countryside to the cities takes away houses from Spaniards born in the cities. Seems like an argument for internal visas like China's household registration system to prevent excessive migration to the cities. The countryside is mostly emptying out so no need to prevent people moving or buying there.

> Seems like an argument for internal visas like China's household registration system to prevent excessive migration to the cities With the big difference being the Chinese citizen being denied Beijing hukou is still a Chinese citizen. Madrid should properly first concern itself with Spaniards' wellbeing. (This isn't an argument for or against this policy. Just clarifying why restricting non-EU home purchases is dif…

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Re: Spain proposes 100% tax on homes bought by non-EU residents

#193

Post by ralsnop »

rednafi wrote: post #176

The issue is that countries expect foreigners to bring in money, earn a lot, and pay taxes at the 90th percentile, but they’re (the locals) reluctant to share resources in return. A 100% taxation model turns it into a one-way street. Sure, if you don’t need foreign investment, you can afford to do that. But let’s be real—welcoming foreigners isn’t an act of charity. Governments usually do it because foreigners are of…

If India had 25% white EU members similar to Sweden having 25% migration background members (mostly from Africa or the Middle East), perhaps Indians would get a tiny bit protectionist.

The accusation that locals are reluctant to share resources is offensive at this point. There is no space and people can barely afford to pay rents.

Meanwhile there are "golden visas" to Portugal or Cyprus where rich Chinese can gain entry to the EU and buy up everything. For a token "investment" like buying stocks to the tune of EUR 1,000,000. They do not exactly build a semiconductor fab.

Again the myth that "foreigners are more productive". Where does that come from? West Germany did just fine before 1990, everything deteriorated since then.

Re: Spain proposes 100% tax on homes bought by non-EU residents

#194

Post by llamaimperative »

gruez wrote: post #153
llamaimperative wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do crimes have a liquid market with supply and demand mechanics? If so, then sure, you can blame every criminal for x% of every crime, I guess.

The comment was in reply to: >Even if the bureaucracy is the worst offender, every foreigner buying a house still results in 1 less house for Spaniards. It's pretty clear that supply and demand isn't a consideration here, and the commenter is strictly focusing on the aspect that one house is being removed from the housing supply.

If you remove a house from the supply, by any method, there is one fewer house in said supply.

Re: Spain proposes 100% tax on homes bought by non-EU residents

#195

Post by JumpCrisscross »

Gvaskas wrote: post #192
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Seems like an argument for internal visas like China's household registration system to prevent excessive migration to the cities With the big difference being the Chinese citizen being denied Beijing hukou is still a Chinese citizen. Madrid should properly first concern itself with Spaniards' wellbeing. (This isn't an argument for or against this policy. Just clarifying why restricting non-EU home purchases is dif…

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> over being called 'racist' by hateful strangers

Straw man [1]. You're the only one in this thread levelling this charge.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Re: Spain proposes 100% tax on homes bought by non-EU residents

#196

Post by klipt »

Teever wrote: post #183
klipt wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could also argue that every Spaniard moving from the countryside to the cities takes away houses from Spaniards born in the cities. Seems like an argument for internal visas like China's household registration system to prevent excessive migration to the cities. The countryside is mostly emptying out so no need to prevent people moving or buying there.

That comparison make sense in a world where the well being of a nation's citizens wasn't the priority of a nation. However we live in a world where that isn't the case so a nation deciding to restrict immigration or economic activity by foreigners for the benefit of the domestic population is an acceptable position to take -- provided it actually have that desired outcome.

Spoiler: it won't help much.

Liberalizing zoning and taxing land would do more to improve housing affordability.

Re: Spain proposes 100% tax on homes bought by non-EU residents

#197

Post by rad_gruchalski »

codetrotter wrote: post #166
rad_gruchalski wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not really clear what they mean.

Person A sets up a company in foreign country. Company buys a building in the country. Company rents out the building to Person A.

Yes yes thanks

Re: Spain proposes 100% tax on homes bought by non-EU residents

#198

Post by JumpCrisscross »

WorkerBee28474 wrote: post #161
AuthorizedCust wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you’re in oversupply, as the parent comment suggested, then is the effect of additional buyers meaningful?

If you have extra supply of houses needing renovation, as in the comment, and renovations require labor and/or materials to complete, having foreigners pay to renovate houses to be livable will decrease the ability of Spaniards to renovate houses to be livable. For example, let's assume renovations are 100% completed by local crews. Any crew working for a foreigner is working for them because A) the foreigner is payi…

> There is no situation in which adding foreign money results in more houses for locals

Assuming fixed supply, yes, it's (probably) a zero-sum game.

> eliminating the ability for foreigners to buy materials for renovations will move the curve intersection down to a lower price and volume

Assuming a frictionless market and no economies of scale, yes. In reality, you'll have a smaller set of options for locals at a slightly (but not dramatically) lower price. (Again, for an example look at all the markets foreign investors shun.)

> will be fewer renovation crews, because some crew will not be profitable at the lower rate, but more crews working to renovate houses for Spaniards

You absolutely cannot conclude this from first principles.

You make valid points. They just need to be followed up with data. The systems you're talking about are too sensitive to generalise like this.

Re: Spain proposes 100% tax on homes bought by non-EU residents

#199

Post by bdangubic »

iforgot22 wrote: post #175
fabrice_d wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The benefit is that more people can afford to buy houses? Really surprising to see a country taking care of their people, and not just the wealthy ones! All the hypotheses claiming that "the market pressure will improve things for all" have been proven false at this point. We have decades of data, and this is only widening the inequality gap.

I don't see why this is better than people renting and investing their savings elsewhere, which is how it works with apartments anyway. So you own a house, it makes basically no return, now what?

where exactly does a house make no return, especially in say last decade/15 years? I bought three houses in the last 20 years, one doubled, one up 70% and one 40% (still occupying it)

Re: Spain proposes 100% tax on homes bought by non-EU residents

#200

Post by handman105 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #180
rgtank108 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is this contrarian sophistry? In Europe foreigners often buy the most expensive historical real estate they can lay their hands on. If they do build something, it is office buildings for investment that take up space and often remain empty (Chinese are good at that). These investments still take up space and drive up real estate prices. Where do you even live?

> In Europe foreigners often buy the most expensive historical real estate they can lay their hands on Source? (I'm generally hugely sceptical of uniform statements about how capital behaves across the EU, let alone Europe.)

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