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New York starts enforcing $15 broadband law that ISPs tried to kill

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Re: New York starts enforcing $15 broadband law that ISPs tried to kill

#71

While I agree that people getting internet in this day and age is _basically_ a necessity (and thus the govt should interfere when needed to make that happen), doing it in this way is the worse possible implementation. Was it necessary in this case? I don't know. First, foster competition. I don't know the NY landscape, but in the West Coast, it's not uncommon for a residency to have effectively a single option for I…

> First, foster competition. What are you imagining, a dozen companies constantly tearing up the streets to lay down yet another run of fiber to everyone's homes? Once you get to a certain density, things like 5G or Starlink or whatever aren't going to scale. It doesn't make capital sense to have a bunch of companies run practically identical lines to every home.

Line sharing / unbundling / open access, whatever you want to call it is the way for this to work. Ideally, separate companies for last mile access and IP transit.

Drop the customer traffic off somewhere in the region, and let 3rd party ISPs pick it up from there.

Re: New York starts enforcing $15 broadband law that ISPs tried to kill

#72
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read what you wrote or was it a stream-of-consciousness thing? Because you wrote: > This will increase costs for ISPs and likely increase prices for others. It will not increase costs. Which is what I wrote.

That wasn't a crucial point of my argument. I disagree but everything I said still applied if you replace increase costs to decrease profits. And there is a response to these things, like increased costs. This is pretty uncontroversial basic economics. Even that doesnt matter. Just do it directly so you know exactly how much the subsidy is worth. Tax their profits and transfer it to the people. It's simpler, more vis…

> Tax their profits and transfer it to the people. It's simpler, more visible, less unintended consequences

How is that simpler? I'm assuming by "transfer it to the people" you're talking about a subsidy paid out where the customer pays $15 and the municipality then pays the balance, but why should they? The data networks the ISP is paywalling access to were in large part already funded by the taxpayer. And besides-which, that doesn't put a cap on the price the ISP can charge at all, and in fact gives them a reliable avenue to now help themselves to either the pocket books of the people it's meant to be benefitting, or the state coffers, neither of which is a good solution.

And as to the market effects, I mean genuinely, have you ever purchased internet service? Because I have since I moved out of my parents house in the mid 10's, and I assure you as a sysadmin and pretty techy person, in that time, I needed ONE (1) service call to address an issue in their wiring, and apart from that, to my knowledge, I was basically 100% profit, minus whatever expenses go into maintaining the trunk, and my price went from about $70 per month to within shouting distance of $200 over the course of 3 years, and then stayed there for the subsequent four years, for pretty middle of the road service at half a gig down and about 35 MB up. So I guess by your logic, there must've been a hell of a lot going up further up the trunk to justify me paying ballpark $7,000 over those months.

Or, more likely, the CEO wanted another yacht.

Edit: This stuck in my craw so I googled a bit, and the biggest provider of fiber service in New York is Verizon FIOS, who posted a profit last year of EIGHTY. BILLION. DOLLARS. So you'll forgive me if I have doubts that even if we presume they're losing their shirts on this $15 per month program for qualifying low income folks on a per-address basis, that they're going to go under about it. I think they'll manage just fine.

Re: New York starts enforcing $15 broadband law that ISPs tried to kill

#73
post #40

>"any recurring taxes and fees such as recurring rental fees for service provider equipment required to obtain broadband service and usage fees. Where I am (outside NY) low income broadband is a thing, and the taxes and fees are included in the $15/~$25 a major telecom provider offers. The alternative provider to them advertises a $20 month special, but when you check into it the taxes and fees for that provider add…

Assuming you're in the U.S., the FCC has adopted new broadband labeling transparency requirements meant to address exactly this sort of thing. They went into effect last year.

https://www.fcc.gov/broadbandlabels

Re: New York starts enforcing $15 broadband law that ISPs tried to kill

#74
post #15

This article brings way more questions than it answers like: 1. Starlink has more than 20K customers, can I get Starlink at home? 2. A) What if I live somewhere remote and the nearest cable is 20 miles from home? B) If Verizon has cable but I want Xfinity, should they be forced to dig 20 miles to my home? C) I am waiting more than 14 days for this 20-mile cable to come to my home and I am running out of patience. How…

1. It has to be 20k in the state. And they might get an exception for dish cost, at least right now.

2. I don't see anything that affects who they offer service to, so no mandatory expansion.

3. No, because that's silly.

4. I don't see a mechanism for that.

5. It doesn't mention caps. I would expect latency problems to get punished as improper service.

6. Why would that happen? That seems like quite a small edge case.

Re: New York starts enforcing $15 broadband law that ISPs tried to kill

#75
post #5

> The New York law requiring Internet providers to offer cheap plans to people with low incomes will take effect on Wednesday this week following a multi-year court battle in which the state defeated broadband industry lobby groups. I don't like these types of mandates because it distorts the market. Politicians get to say "we provided X people with internet service and we didn't use a dollar of tax payers' money". W…

What will actually increase costs for others is the ISPs deciding to raising prices.

Re: New York starts enforcing $15 broadband law that ISPs tried to kill

#76
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compare this to California regulating how much insurance companies can charge. IN that case, its lead to horrendous side effects where insurance companies are leaving the state, dropping customers, etc because they will literally lose money on the policies, which has lead to bad outcomes. Id rather that the state actually pay for the things it wants and not put in a bunch of hidden taxes that have strong distortions…

Private companies looking for profit and leaving when they notice that is not profitable is not a undesired thing. If your margins depend on you screwing your customers, your business model shouldn't exist. California will figure something out, maybe making high density residences easier to build, would make a difference. Also, that's not exactly why they are leaving, they are leaving because the state forces them to…

The risk of fire has clearly massively increased thanks to climate change. California's rules literally dont allow them to charge prices that account for this. California has an insurance plan of last resort that is now billions underwater, which is a clear sign of the issues at play.

Its not that these insurance companies are screwing their customers; rather at the rates that California requires they charge, these houses should not exist because they are a net negative to society unless their insurance costs more.

I agree on the dense housing. So many of these burns are in areas that we shouldn't have built.

Re: New York starts enforcing $15 broadband law that ISPs tried to kill

#77
post #5

> The New York law requiring Internet providers to offer cheap plans to people with low incomes will take effect on Wednesday this week following a multi-year court battle in which the state defeated broadband industry lobby groups. I don't like these types of mandates because it distorts the market. Politicians get to say "we provided X people with internet service and we didn't use a dollar of tax payers' money". W…

This does not increase the cost to ISPs. It does marginally decrease their profits. A profit is not a cost, and despite what finance bros think lower profits are also not a cost. It is perfectly possible to supply 1000Mbps symmetrical fiber service to end users for $20/mo because numerous self-sufficient non-profit municipal broadband organizations in the United States are doing just that. This is 2.5% the capacity f…

> It is perfectly possible to supply 1000Mbps symmetrical fiber service to end users for $20/mo because numerous self-sufficient non-profit municipal broadband organizations in the United States are doing just that.

This statement is false.

Re: New York starts enforcing $15 broadband law that ISPs tried to kill

#78
post #5

> The New York law requiring Internet providers to offer cheap plans to people with low incomes will take effect on Wednesday this week following a multi-year court battle in which the state defeated broadband industry lobby groups. I don't like these types of mandates because it distorts the market. Politicians get to say "we provided X people with internet service and we didn't use a dollar of tax payers' money". W…

Internet is a utility, like water.

We can't have true competition with utilities, because we'd need six sets of pipes into every apartment just to have six competing providers, so the government needs to step in and regulate utilities, because they are a natural monopoly.

Re: New York starts enforcing $15 broadband law that ISPs tried to kill

#79
post #5

> The New York law requiring Internet providers to offer cheap plans to people with low incomes will take effect on Wednesday this week following a multi-year court battle in which the state defeated broadband industry lobby groups. I don't like these types of mandates because it distorts the market. Politicians get to say "we provided X people with internet service and we didn't use a dollar of tax payers' money". W…

Commercial ISPs are a 1980s idea when few people wanted the service.

Municipal networks, even if last mile only, are the only sensible modern approach where everyone deserves to have access to the service.

Then you can layer different national providers on the framework for individual and commercial contract service and then you can realistically talk about a municipally operated "best effort" /free/ service for everyone else and for those who cannot afford anything.

Re: New York starts enforcing $15 broadband law that ISPs tried to kill

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What hidden costs? Taxes? Probably the top 5 thing I'd love my taxes to go to. I think the downsides will be obvious: their internet is super cheap but not really fast. In other words, not too dissimilar to 3/4/5g plans with phones almost everyone has. No one's gonna be streaming Netflix and any Youtube over 360p on this plan. If we're arguing that the Internet is a public need, then I don't see the downsides here. u…

The hidden costs are the price increases that ISPs add to customer bills to “make up for it.” Now, I’m not saying that’s right - I actually agree with your premise - nor am I saying that any ISP truly has a marginal cost of each customer (especially given their engrained habit of oversubscribing their infrastructure) that they need to “make up for.” I’m just clarifying the “hidden costs” that GP seems to be mentionin…

>price increases that ISPs add to customer bills to “make up for it.”

This implies that ISPs won't do price hikes to begin with. My bill went up $5 over 2024 alone. Not even an announcement or anything. They'll make up whatever excuse they want, similar to CA's increase in wages to fast food workers: "we'll have to fire staff or shut down if we pay workers $4/hr". All the major chains are still around a year later. Some tried the AI drive thru thing, but they all reverted back.

> this would be better handled as an explicit tax that’s passed onto customers of the ISP.

I agree. Itemized lists should definitely be a default, and not something inaccessible at worse, and needing to poke a company for at best.

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