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Microsoft Open Sources their Entity Framework ORM

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Re: Microsoft Open Sources their Entity Framework ORM

#51

Post by shanselman »

mythz wrote: post #46
barista wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"mythz", Merto style apps can always be done in HTML5, CSS, http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/br21138... so I am not sure why you say that the cross platform rich initiatives have been killed. More details: http://www.winsupersite.com/blog/supersite-blog-39/windows8/...

"This couldn’t be further from the truth. The use of HTML5 + JavaScript in Windows 8 is about as proprietary as using XAML + .NET." http://dougseven.com/2011/10/24/language-choice-in-windows-8... Just because it uses JS doesn't mean its portable! It has proprietary APIS + hooks making it non portable.

That's no different from using HTML5+JavaScript against browser specific APIs or using CSS3 vendor prefixes. Calling external stuff from JavaScript (even if that external thing is Windows itself) is not new and it's not bad that it's not portable any more than writing XUL wasn't portable.

Re: Microsoft Open Sources their Entity Framework ORM

#52

Post by shanselman »

GFischer wrote: post #13
flyinRyan wrote: post #5

Is Entity used a lot? We looked at using it but it seemed to be inferior to NHibernate (don't remember details, think there was a problem with type error detection and other stuff).

The company I work for uses it, I'm not thrilled - it's still rough around the edges and I'm used to writing my own SQL, but it gets the job done on the few projects I've used it (I only used V1 which was very bad).

V1 was lousy. EF5 Code First is pretty cool (combined with a micro-ORM for specific queries that might need a perf edge) and EF6 will support async and await.

Re: Microsoft Open Sources their Entity Framework ORM

#54

Post by tysonjennings »

shanselman wrote: post #51
mythz wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This couldn’t be further from the truth. The use of HTML5 + JavaScript in Windows 8 is about as proprietary as using XAML + .NET." http://dougseven.com/2011/10/24/language-choice-in-windows-8... Just because it uses JS doesn't mean its portable! It has proprietary APIS + hooks making it non portable.

That's no different from using HTML5+JavaScript against browser specific APIs or using CSS3 vendor prefixes. Calling external stuff from JavaScript (even if that external thing is Windows itself) is not new and it's not bad that it's not portable any more than writing XUL wasn't portable.

"That's no different from using HTML5+JavaScript against browser specific APIs"

Sure it is if those browsers are cross-platform. I doubt the Windows 8 APIs are cross platform.

Re: Microsoft Open Sources their Entity Framework ORM

#55

Post by mythz »

shanselman wrote: post #51
mythz wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This couldn’t be further from the truth. The use of HTML5 + JavaScript in Windows 8 is about as proprietary as using XAML + .NET." http://dougseven.com/2011/10/24/language-choice-in-windows-8... Just because it uses JS doesn't mean its portable! It has proprietary APIS + hooks making it non portable.

That's no different from using HTML5+JavaScript against browser specific APIs or using CSS3 vendor prefixes. Calling external stuff from JavaScript (even if that external thing is Windows itself) is not new and it's not bad that it's not portable any more than writing XUL wasn't portable.

If there's no equivalent work around it's not portable - simple as that. Proprietary hooks and APIs aren't evil, but suggesting developing for Metro is "open" and portable is wrong.

Since you've mentioned it, Mozilla isn't touting to use XUL for "open" cross-browser apps - although XUL itself, unlike anything Metro, is open source and does run cross-platform. Mozilla is even deprecating the use of XUL for its new Firefox OS (Boot to Gecko) in favor of using pure HTML5 instead. Maybe MS can work together with Mozilla and come up with a common API?

Re: Microsoft Open Sources their Entity Framework ORM

#56

Post by shanselman »

tysonjennings wrote: post #54
shanselman wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's no different from using HTML5+JavaScript against browser specific APIs or using CSS3 vendor prefixes. Calling external stuff from JavaScript (even if that external thing is Windows itself) is not new and it's not bad that it's not portable any more than writing XUL wasn't portable.

"That's no different from using HTML5+JavaScript against browser specific APIs" Sure it is if those browsers are cross-platform. I doubt the Windows 8 APIs are cross platform.

PhoneGap, Mobile Safari, window.external.Notify, window.sidebar in Firefox but not Opera, you get the idea.

Re: Microsoft Open Sources their Entity Framework ORM

#57

Post by shanselman »

mythz wrote: post #55
shanselman wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's no different from using HTML5+JavaScript against browser specific APIs or using CSS3 vendor prefixes. Calling external stuff from JavaScript (even if that external thing is Windows itself) is not new and it's not bad that it's not portable any more than writing XUL wasn't portable.

If there's no equivalent work around it's not portable - simple as that. Proprietary hooks and APIs aren't evil, but suggesting developing for Metro is "open" and portable is wrong. Since you've mentioned it, Mozilla isn't touting to use XUL for "open" cross-browser apps - although XUL itself, unlike anything Metro, is open source and does run cross-platform. Mozilla is even deprecating the use of XUL for its new Fir…

And Boot to Gecko will no doubt use lots of Firefox OS specific stuff just as WebOS does. I'm not defending Windows 8, I'm just pointing out that it's reasonable to use a language (JavaScript) to call out to 3rd party APIs.

Re: Microsoft Open Sources their Entity Framework ORM

#58

Post by j_s »

shanselman wrote: post #51
mythz wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This couldn’t be further from the truth. The use of HTML5 + JavaScript in Windows 8 is about as proprietary as using XAML + .NET." http://dougseven.com/2011/10/24/language-choice-in-windows-8... Just because it uses JS doesn't mean its portable! It has proprietary APIS + hooks making it non portable.

That's no different from using HTML5+JavaScript against browser specific APIs or using CSS3 vendor prefixes. Calling external stuff from JavaScript (even if that external thing is Windows itself) is not new and it's not bad that it's not portable any more than writing XUL wasn't portable.

The point being made by mythz to barista was that Metro's HTML5 + JavaScript was not portable (cross-platform), and you clearly agree.

The only one talking about 'bad' is you saying it's 'not bad'.

Re: Microsoft Open Sources their Entity Framework ORM

#59

Post by notJim »

jmcqk6 wrote: post #43
ams6110 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems more like a desperation move to me. Microsoft have almost no presence in popular web apps or mobile. Almost no startups or established services use the Microsoft stack. Maybe they think that by open sourcing they will get a look by devs/shops that would never have considered them before. I still think it's a long shot. The best development platform for .NET is Visual Studio and Windows. And the "cool startups"…

There are plenty of startups that have been successful on the .NET stack. The one that pops to mind first is Stack Overflow. .NET & XNA are pretty popular in indie games due to exposure to the xbox. There are many examples, but they don't tend to over lap much with the crowd here at HN.

What's the second one that pops to mind? And, because I can actually name a second one :p, what's the third?

Re: Microsoft Open Sources their Entity Framework ORM

#60

Post by shanselman »

j_s wrote: post #58
shanselman wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's no different from using HTML5+JavaScript against browser specific APIs or using CSS3 vendor prefixes. Calling external stuff from JavaScript (even if that external thing is Windows itself) is not new and it's not bad that it's not portable any more than writing XUL wasn't portable.

The point being made by mythz to barista was that Metro's HTML5 + JavaScript was not portable (cross-platform), and you clearly agree. The only one talking about 'bad' is you saying it's 'not bad'.

Point taken.
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