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Right to root access

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Re: Right to root access

#251

Post by maniacwhat »

kachapopopow wrote: post #184

The reason why this will never happen is simply due to things like DRM. We right now have ENCRYPTED signal going from our computer to our displays, not just computers, but phones too SIMPLY to prevent people from dumping raw data. All of that extra processing done just so you're allowed to for ex: watch netflix with a resolution higher than 720p. Then comically there's Chinese capture cards that you plug your GPU int…

Perhaps it imposes some restrictions, like using TPMs, but I don't think it excludes what the author is suggesting, which is the ability to run as root.

Case in point: every popular desktop PC let's you run as root, and also watch DRM content. They aren't totally mutually exclusive.

Re: Right to root access

#252

Post by regnull »

lapcat wrote: post #233
regnull wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before we put all the blame on vendors, I submit to you, ladies and gentlemen, this: the public finds this tradeoff (privacy for entertainment) completely acceptable. With all the outrage, privacy-centric solutions are out there and relatively easy to find, how come they don't get more traction? Including among the HN crowd?

> privacy-centric solutions are out there and relatively easy to find Really? Please name them. Over the past 10 or 15 years, I've never seen anything other than the iPhone/Android or Mac/Windows duopoly for sale in any retail store. I've never seen any advertising for other than those duopolies. The HN crowd may be aware of obscure options, but for the vast majority of consumers, they don't exist. And since we as de…

And as for "why are not selling this in every retail store?", the answer is the same - because if they were, no one would buy them. I found the situation curious, while everyone complains about it, only very few people are trying to do anything about it. Perhaps the breaking point was not reached yet, and something big has to happen to change people's perspective.

Re: Right to root access

#253

Post by lapcat »

thinkharderdev wrote: post #236
alias_neo wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So they'll never use a PC or laptop or anything of that ilk again? To use the same logic, they shouldn't be given anything with a visible screw, or are you going to tell me they _wouldn't_ take a screw driver to an appliance because that would be silly for someone who doesn't know what they're doing in there?

If there were a multi-billion dollar industry of scammers always trying to trick them into taking the screws out of things so they could steal from them, then no I probably wouldn't buy them anything with visible screws.

This is a strange argument, kind of like, "We can't defund the police, because look at all of the crime out there!" If there's so much crime occuring already, then what in the world are the police doing?

To an extent, crime can't be eliminated. You can't even eliminate crime by instituting a strict authoritarian regime, because power corrupts, and those in power become criminals themselves. That's why turning big tech companies into paternalistic device authoritarians doesn't work. The big tech companies have become massively corrupt, demanding a 30% cut of everything that happens on your devices, in return for what? Some low paid, low skill reviewer spending a few minutes to approve or reject a third party app submission? That's not security, it's security theater.

There were phone scams before there were smartphones. Before there were mobile phones, when everyone had a landline. There's no technical solution for crime and scams, much as tech people want there to be. Education and viligence have always been the only effective resistance. Unfortunately, the big tech companies don't want to do education; to the contrary, they want consumers to be eternally technically ignorant—despite the increasing importance of computers in our lives—because that's more profitable. At least with cars, we have mandatory driver's education.

Re: Right to root access

#254

Post by margana »

maniacwhat wrote: post #251
kachapopopow wrote: post #184

The reason why this will never happen is simply due to things like DRM. We right now have ENCRYPTED signal going from our computer to our displays, not just computers, but phones too SIMPLY to prevent people from dumping raw data. All of that extra processing done just so you're allowed to for ex: watch netflix with a resolution higher than 720p. Then comically there's Chinese capture cards that you plug your GPU int…

Perhaps it imposes some restrictions, like using TPMs, but I don't think it excludes what the author is suggesting, which is the ability to run as root. Case in point: every popular desktop PC let's you run as root, and also watch DRM content. They aren't totally mutually exclusive.

You can't play 4K Netflix on Linux, period. Because of DRM. Before you say "this is just a Netflix issue" - you can't play 4K Prime Video on Linux either. Nor 4K Disney+. And many other services. Piracy is the only way to watch most 4K streaming content on Linux. You may have the most capable and up-to-date hardware on the market, you still can't.

Re: Right to root access

#255

Post by spacedcowboy »

userbinator wrote: post #75
lapcat wrote: post #32

There are a ton of products on the market that are vastly more dangerous than computers: guns, cars, motorcycles, bicycles, chainsaws, table saws, cigarettes, alcohol, junk food. Yes, consumers do sometimes harm themselves by using these products. That's the price of freedom . I think it's bizarre that we treat computers as the most dangerous products in the world that for some reason demand paternalism, when none of…

Not only profits, but control. Remember the whole CSAM scanning debacle from Apple?

was that when they said “instead of uploading the images to our servers to do the CSAM scan, we’ll do a quick once over in the privacy of your own phone to see if we can allow-list your photo” ?

And then the whole world suddenly went apeshit, so Apple basically shrugged, said “fine, we’ll do it just like everyone else and put your photos in the relatively unprotected server domain to do the scan”. Sucks to be you.

Understand that at no point was there an option to not do the scan on upload, like all cloud providers, Apple scans for CSAM on any uploaded photos to stay out of any government grey areas.

Re: Right to root access

#256

Post by lapcat »

eviks wrote: post #250
lapcat wrote: post #32

There are a ton of products on the market that are vastly more dangerous than computers: guns, cars, motorcycles, bicycles, chainsaws, table saws, cigarettes, alcohol, junk food. Yes, consumers do sometimes harm themselves by using these products. That's the price of freedom . I think it's bizarre that we treat computers as the most dangerous products in the world that for some reason demand paternalism, when none of…

> think it's bizarre that we treat computers as the most dangerous products in the world We do not? You don't even need a license to buy /operate a computer unlike with some other examples on your list

By "we" I meant online commenters debating the issue of tech company device lockdown.

I didn't mean "the law". To the contrary, the submitted article author was proposing that we pass laws giving greater individual consumer rights over their devices. But the big tech companies have been viciously fighting against consumer rights, such as the right to repair.

Re: Right to root access

#257

Post by spacedcowboy »

lapcat wrote: post #234
jshen wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only computers let bad people drain bank accounts at scale.

Please cite the statistics on the volume of bank account draining before you claim that it happens "at scale".

I mean, the nigerian prince scam is almost a meme these days…

Re: Right to root access

#258

Post by lapcat »

regnull wrote: post #249
lapcat wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> privacy-centric solutions are out there and relatively easy to find Really? Please name them. Over the past 10 or 15 years, I've never seen anything other than the iPhone/Android or Mac/Windows duopoly for sale in any retail store. I've never seen any advertising for other than those duopolies. The HN crowd may be aware of obscure options, but for the vast majority of consumers, they don't exist. And since we as de…

Here you go: https://us.starlabs.systems/ Now, how many of you guys have this? Or anything like this? I bet 95% of the HN crowd happily uses iOS/Android daily.

I've never even heard of that before, and I'm terminally online.

Anyway, desktop computers aren't really the main problem here. For example, Apple Macs offer vastly more personal freedom than Apple iPhones. If iPhones behaved like Macs in that respect, then we might not be having this debate. To the extent that Macs have been increasingly locked down over the past 15 years, it's mostly just copying the iPhone, porting the "features" over from one platform to the other.

Re: Right to root access

#259

Post by [deleted] »

throw0101a wrote: post #180
raxxor wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If protection of the casual user was an argument, there would be an easy option to unlock your system, be that phones or desktop computers. But on many systems these options do not exist because the vendor likes people dependent on them. This is why devices like chromebooks or all mobile phones are more or less e-waste in the making. In my opinion it is a waste to use any development capacity for these systems apart…

> If protection of the casual user was an argument, there would be an easy option to unlock your system, be that phones or desktop computers. Making it easy to unlock could make it easy(er) for scammers to get it unlocked: > I received the same type of call a little later in the day. They were very adamant they were calling from the Bell data centre, on a terrible line and I made them call back three more times while…

[deleted]

Re: Right to root access

#260

Post by margana »

jazzyjackson wrote: post #29

If locking the bootloader and comparing signatures against keys burned into a secure enclave allow Apple to make certain security guarantees that helps them sell products, I'm all for their freedom to do so. Why doesn't OP merely champion competition, instead of encouraging regulation of what software others can write, what hardware others can ship? I too am afraid of general purpose computing going by the wayside, a…

Because the phone market is a duopoly that was impenetrable for even Microsoft. This "why don't you just make your own Apple?" argument is ridiculous, it will not happen no matter how much you "encourage" it as a consumer. You even contradict this yourself by saying "we're left with what provide us".
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