Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Right to root access

medhir.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

241–250 of 428 posts

Re: Right to root access

#241

Post by pseudocomposer »

MetaWhirledPeas wrote: post #230
pseudocomposer wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“The least bad option in a market oriented against users and designed to maximize profit” is not the same as “completely acceptable.”

I believe GP is referring to things like privacy-centric de-Googled Android phones, which definitely are an option. I would not classify those as "least bad" or even bad. GP is correct about Apple products; even among the HN crowd they are likely the most popular devices. I think this is because most readers aren't trying to die on the hill of openness. They're more concerned with software and ubiquity, two areas whe…

Actually, I was disagreeing with the GP specifically about Apple products. I'm an Apple user, but very much because they're the "least bad" option. De-Googled Android phones still have awful audio latency (I'm a musician who makes a music app on the side), very limited messaging and notification features, and integrate poorly with desktop OSes. For how I use my devices, open or no, Android simply isn't a viable option.

The thing about all this is, Apple's products being well-integrated and well-designed doesn't require them to be locked down the way they are. The EU move to force them to use USB-C/Thunderbolt over Lightning is a perfect example of this. It unilaterally improved things for users, and iPhone 14 vs. 15 sales reflected that pretty clearly.

So I'd especially describe Apple as the "least bad" rather than "completely acceptable." They're specifically what I had in mind saying that.

Re: Right to root access

#242

Post by shmerl »

jmb99 wrote: post #139
shmerl wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a slippery slope, because they list devices as sold, not as rented. So they can't claim that. Some still try, especially using copyright on software on the devices as leverage.

More than likely, they’ll instead just start actually renting you the products. See Apple’s 2-year rental program for a (relatively) non-predatory implementation, or NZXT’s for a very predatory implementation.

It's one thing if they rent for cheaper and sell for more. But if they'll only rent it will be messed up.

Re: Right to root access

#243

Post by rad_gruchalski »

EMIRELADERO wrote: post #227
dusted wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I mean is that I think this is the fastest way to end the era of widely-available general-purpose-computing devices that we are currently in (and that is currently ending, but at a glacial speed). It's not that hard to imagine a version of the world where computers as we know them do not exist, but are mere appliances (like tablets and smartphones), and if companies feel threatened that they might be forced to o…

That's easily solved. Just scope the law to any device that can run code, and have the criteria for control be "the user must never have less control over code execution as the manufacturer does after the sale". So, for example, if someone buys a phone from Apple they will get full control of the entire device (SEP/TEE included) because Apple has the ability to exercise post-sale code execution control to that level…

Does that apply to those biometric readers issued to me by the government? If not, why not? Can I have a root on my car to disable ISA? Why not, if not? Do you see the problem?

Re: Right to root access

#244

Post by Ajedi32 »

jerjerjer wrote: post #97

Fully agreed. I was thinking of something similar, only I was calling it "Right to execute", similarly to the "Right to repair". I'm buying a general computing device. It's ridiculous I'm artificially limited in using it for the main purpose of making shareholders rich. Ideally I'd add a mandatory toolchain to that. At least a C compiler which should be able to target a device I own.

I just call it "Software Freedom", like GNU has since the 80s:

> the freedom to change a program, so that you can control it instead of it controlling you

I don't necessarily endorse all of Stallman's philosophy on software. But I think in this point at least he was very prescient.

Re: Right to root access

#246

Post by pimterry »

adolph wrote: post #232
fiso64 wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm actually confused about why banks are so aggressive in denying users the ability to use their apps while rooted. Unlike Google and Apple I can't think of any financial incentives for this, and the security argument is quite obviously nonsense, as I don't think there has been a single person in history who managed to fall for a scam that made them follow the complicated procedure of rooting a smartphone. Neverthel…

> to fall for a scam that made them follow the complicated procedure of rooting If you are unable to imagine how a 3rd party might root a device without the principal being aware of it, then maybe it is a shortcoming of your risk survey, not theirs.

Rooting an Android device generally requires completely wiping it and reinstalling the OS. It's quite impractical to do secretly!

I think in any scenario where the principal can do that without you noticing (which means things like reinstalling & logging you back into all your apps, logging the device into your google account successfully, restoring all your device settings, re-adding your fingerprint or device pin to unlock the device, etc) then it's game over regardless. If they can do that, they could get into your bank app anyway, or they could easily just replace your phone with another one entirely, and now you're just logging into your bank on a stranger's phone.

Barring a _very_ major Android zero-day (which probably would evade attestation anyway) unexpected rooting of your device is really not a plausible attack scenario.

Re: Right to root access

#247

Post by throwaway7623 »

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #40
lapcat wrote: post #32

There are a ton of products on the market that are vastly more dangerous than computers: guns, cars, motorcycles, bicycles, chainsaws, table saws, cigarettes, alcohol, junk food. Yes, consumers do sometimes harm themselves by using these products. That's the price of freedom . I think it's bizarre that we treat computers as the most dangerous products in the world that for some reason demand paternalism, when none of…

This is a very popular HN opinion; but not a very popular real world opinion. The average customer wants a device that works consistently, every day, that is easy to use, with a collection of 3rd party apps who won’t steal their life savings. Windows failed to deliver this; the average customer never downloads an Exe from a newer publisher without terror. The average consumer is literally dozens of times more likely…

> Windows failed to deliver this; the average customer never downloads an Exe from a newer publisher without terror. The average consumer is literally dozens of times more likely to trust a new smartphone app than a new desktop app.

Yet that trust is, for the most part, unfounded. There's a ton of malware in app stores - you can assume any app that contains ads is sending data about you to some shady server, for example. You can't even trust the most popular apps not to be malware [0].

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42651115

Re: Right to root access

#248

Post by klabb3 »

Ajedi32 wrote: post #235
regnull wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before we put all the blame on vendors, I submit to you, ladies and gentlemen, this: the public finds this tradeoff (privacy for entertainment) completely acceptable. With all the outrage, privacy-centric solutions are out there and relatively easy to find, how come they don't get more traction? Including among the HN crowd?

This isn't about privacy. Not directly anyway. This is about your right to have control of your own property. You make a fair point though; the case does need to be made as to why this is a market failure and not just consumer choice working as expected. Why _do_ consumers tolerate manufacturers retaining ultimate control of consumer's property after the sale? It certainly doesn't seem to be that important to them. M…

> This isn't about privacy. Not directly anyway.

Agree fully. Don’t know why you’re being downvoted. I accept the risk or tradeoff of Apple or MS spying on me. It’s not that, but the right to repair, to tinker, to hack. Those things have brought us so much interesting wonderful things. My entire generation (millennial) has superior tech literacy to both those that came before and after (no shade to the older gen - some of you are better than us, but with millennials it’s so much more widespread than eg gen X). Many younger gens never use ”real” computers (only tablet & phone). The gilded age was an anomaly, and is over.

> the case does need to be made as to why this is a market failure and not just consumer choice working as expected

I swear this consumer choice navel gazing will be the death of innovation. The US is obsessed with this narrative, that the magic market hand will self-correct, without any justification or scrutiny. Yes, consumer choice is necessary, but not sufficient. Just look at the developments in tech over the last decade+. I don’t have the solution but anyone who’s not entirely lost in dogma should be able to see the failures.

Re: Right to root access

#249

Post by regnull »

lapcat wrote: post #233
regnull wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before we put all the blame on vendors, I submit to you, ladies and gentlemen, this: the public finds this tradeoff (privacy for entertainment) completely acceptable. With all the outrage, privacy-centric solutions are out there and relatively easy to find, how come they don't get more traction? Including among the HN crowd?

> privacy-centric solutions are out there and relatively easy to find Really? Please name them. Over the past 10 or 15 years, I've never seen anything other than the iPhone/Android or Mac/Windows duopoly for sale in any retail store. I've never seen any advertising for other than those duopolies. The HN crowd may be aware of obscure options, but for the vast majority of consumers, they don't exist. And since we as de…

Here you go: https://us.starlabs.systems/

Now, how many of you guys have this? Or anything like this? I bet 95% of the HN crowd happily uses iOS/Android daily.

Re: Right to root access

#250

Post by eviks »

lapcat wrote: post #32

There are a ton of products on the market that are vastly more dangerous than computers: guns, cars, motorcycles, bicycles, chainsaws, table saws, cigarettes, alcohol, junk food. Yes, consumers do sometimes harm themselves by using these products. That's the price of freedom . I think it's bizarre that we treat computers as the most dangerous products in the world that for some reason demand paternalism, when none of…

> think it's bizarre that we treat computers as the most dangerous products in the world

We do not? You don't even need a license to buy /operate a computer unlike with some other examples on your list

Post reply on HN