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Right to root access

medhir.com

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Re: Right to root access

#181

Post by dmurray »

The argument that an iPad runs substantially the same OS and hardware as a MacBook weakens the authors case instead of strengthening it.

You can buy from Apple a computer that's locked down (an iPad), or a computer that's not locked down by the author's definition (a MacBook). It's a matter of consumer choice, not the company insisting on control of your devices.

The non-locked-down machines come in a different form factor than the locked-down ones - they usually have a physical keyboard and a larger form factor to accommodate that. This is partly for historical reasons, but very largely also for consumer choice - and also it makes sense that on the more flexible machine users are more likely to need a keyboard. This is all fine, you can't expect every company to sell their products with every combination of features.

I find more convincing the arguments about e-waste, but they need to be framed like that: sometimes we should mandate consumers get something they don't particularly want, for the greater good.

Re: Right to root access

#182

Post by DoubleGlazing »

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #40
lapcat wrote: post #32

There are a ton of products on the market that are vastly more dangerous than computers: guns, cars, motorcycles, bicycles, chainsaws, table saws, cigarettes, alcohol, junk food. Yes, consumers do sometimes harm themselves by using these products. That's the price of freedom . I think it's bizarre that we treat computers as the most dangerous products in the world that for some reason demand paternalism, when none of…

This is a very popular HN opinion; but not a very popular real world opinion. The average customer wants a device that works consistently, every day, that is easy to use, with a collection of 3rd party apps who won’t steal their life savings. Windows failed to deliver this; the average customer never downloads an Exe from a newer publisher without terror. The average consumer is literally dozens of times more likely…

There's nothing wrong with wanting that, but as the author said those of us who want to opt-out should have the choice to do so.

If I buy an iPhone, I should have the option to completely disconnect it from Apple and be able to replace the OS with whatever I want. If I do not have the option to do that do I REALLY own the device? The answer is no bacause what I have is a device that I can only use the way Apple allows. When the phone is obsolete and Apple stops updates then all I can do is send it off for recycling since Apple won't allow me to repurpose it with new software.

You are putting a lot of trust in the manufacturers as well. For example, they have the technical capabilities to kill the second hand market in their devices if they simply decided to refuse to allow a new user to login to a device. Sure, you could still sell the hardware, but it wouldn't be much use if the manufacturer stopped it from connecting and autorizing. I know this is an extreme example and no sane manufacturer would implement it, but I think it demonstrates why having to option to disconnect is a good thing.

The same applies to all other devices that are locked down, things like smart TVs, IP cameras and appliances. Just look at how many early smart TVs are now dumb because the manufacturer stopped updating the on-board apps. There should be no reason why the owner of such devices should be allowed to do whatever they want with them to try and bring them back to life.

Re: Right to root access

#183

Post by skywhopper »

lapcat wrote: post #32

There are a ton of products on the market that are vastly more dangerous than computers: guns, cars, motorcycles, bicycles, chainsaws, table saws, cigarettes, alcohol, junk food. Yes, consumers do sometimes harm themselves by using these products. That's the price of freedom . I think it's bizarre that we treat computers as the most dangerous products in the world that for some reason demand paternalism, when none of…

Actually, chainsaws, table saws, cars, motorcycles, and even guns all have safety mechanisms installed by the manufacturers and tampering with them voids the warranty.

Re: Right to root access

#184

Post by kachapopopow »

The reason why this will never happen is simply due to things like DRM.

We right now have ENCRYPTED signal going from our computer to our displays, not just computers, but phones too SIMPLY to prevent people from dumping raw data.

All of that extra processing done just so you're allowed to for ex: watch netflix with a resolution higher than 720p. Then comically there's Chinese capture cards that you plug your GPU into, use mirroring mode and completely bypass it.

DRM is just one example, there's many more motivations such as preventing paid apps / pay for currency games from having these things given for free. This is the primary reason why iOS devices make significantly more money than android as it's near impossible to pirate / hack / crack for an average user.

Re: Right to root access

#185

Post by rednafi »

Computers have sharp edges, and people often throw hissy fits when things break. Manufacturers infantalize consumers to dodge lawsuits. Then companies like Apple take it too far by building walled gardens where devices don't have proper file systems, locking you out of your own files.

Re: Right to root access

#186

Post by DoubleGlazing »

raxxor wrote: post #163
frizlab wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s impressive how many people downvote this actually über reasonable opinion…

Because it isn't at all reasonable. There is no argument to not allow root access. You don't have to use it, perhaps most users would be safer with a conventional user account, but it is not reasonable to outright deny full system right to the owner of a device since there are so many disadvantages connected to that.

My thinking is that if I have device that doesn't allow me root access, then what I have is more than likely a device designed to keep making money for the company that made it or wrote the software for it.

Re: Right to root access

#187

Post by invalidlogin »

lapcat wrote: post #32

There are a ton of products on the market that are vastly more dangerous than computers: guns, cars, motorcycles, bicycles, chainsaws, table saws, cigarettes, alcohol, junk food. Yes, consumers do sometimes harm themselves by using these products. That's the price of freedom . I think it's bizarre that we treat computers as the most dangerous products in the world that for some reason demand paternalism, when none of…

A chainsaw does not introduce an opportunity for thousands of remote criminals to steal money from your bank account.

Re: Right to root access

#188

Post by frizlab »

DoubleGlazing wrote: post #186
raxxor wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it isn't at all reasonable. There is no argument to not allow root access. You don't have to use it, perhaps most users would be safer with a conventional user account, but it is not reasonable to outright deny full system right to the owner of a device since there are so many disadvantages connected to that.

My thinking is that if I have device that doesn't allow me root access, then what I have is more than likely a device designed to keep making money for the company that made it or wrote the software for it.

But you know you don’t have root access before buying. Why would you buy it if you want root access?

Re: Right to root access

#189

Post by DoubleGlazing »

frizlab wrote: post #188
DoubleGlazing wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My thinking is that if I have device that doesn't allow me root access, then what I have is more than likely a device designed to keep making money for the company that made it or wrote the software for it.

But you know you don’t have root access before buying. Why would you buy it if you want root access?

I'm willing to stand corrected, but I can't think of a single smartphone on the market from a reputable manufacturer that is sold with root access. If I want a smartphone I have to accept that the manufacturer will have the bootloader locked down, I don't have a choice.

Re: Right to root access

#190

Post by m463 »

lapcat wrote: post #32

There are a ton of products on the market that are vastly more dangerous than computers: guns, cars, motorcycles, bicycles, chainsaws, table saws, cigarettes, alcohol, junk food. Yes, consumers do sometimes harm themselves by using these products. That's the price of freedom . I think it's bizarre that we treat computers as the most dangerous products in the world that for some reason demand paternalism, when none of…

Why don't they let you firewall your phone?
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