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Microsoft Open Sources their Entity Framework ORM

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Re: Microsoft Open Sources their Entity Framework ORM

#21

Post by jmcqk6 »

IanDrake wrote: post #19
jmcqk6 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what they use at Fog Creek, but I will say that I've been building a lot of things lately in both Massive and PetaPoco, and I've really enjoyed it. I've done several projects in both Linq2SQL and EntityFramework at this point, and they both seem way too 'heavy.' Writing straight sql (or pretty much straight sql) has been a return to simplicity. it's forced me to make sure my queries are efficient, and on…

Been having a lot of success with Massive myself. How's using PetaPoco? Any frustrating gotchas?

PetaPoco has been excellent so far. I really like being able to easily switch between dynamic and strongly typed results. If you're not doing "Select * on " the dynamic result is pretty necessary.

I do see where there could be some ways to improve querying the database where you're doing a lot of joins or returning data that is not limited to the table design at all.

Re: Microsoft Open Sources their Entity Framework ORM

#22

Post by mythz »

kamau wrote: post #7
gecko wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like it, and we don't use it at Fog Creek, but, yes, it's VERY heavily used on piles of projects I know. It's not as efficient or flexible as NHibernate, but it's far easier and vastly better integrated into Visual Studio, making it a bit of a no-brainer for simple persistence needs.

So, what do you guys use at Fog Creek. I've been discussing with my colleagues some of the micro-ORMs like Dapper, Massive, or PetaPoco as an alternative to EF. http://code.google.com/p/dapper-dot-net/ https://github.com/robconery/massive http://www.toptensoftware.com/petapoco/

StackOverflow Careers uses Linq2Sql + https://github.com/ServiceStack/ServiceStack.OrmLite + http://code.google.com/p/dapper-dot-net/

Re: Microsoft Open Sources their Entity Framework ORM

#23

Post by mythz »

EF is another overly architected + bloated fx from Microsoft. It's over 12x slower than other Micro ORMs like Dapper + OrmLite - Benchmarks at: http://www.servicestack.net/benchmarks/#dapper

The benefit of Micro ORMs is that they bind to clean re-usable POCO's (which by nature can be re-used as DTO's, ViewModels, etc).

Most of them also add features as DRY extension methods over the underlying ADO.NET System.Data.* interfaces, so there's no magic behaviour or heavy abstractions happening underneath, letting you add new features orthogonally (by adding your own DRY Extension methods in your own project), and you always have direct access to ADO.NET IDbConnection so you're never restricted when you need it.

Re: Microsoft Open Sources their Entity Framework ORM

#24

Post by yxhuvud »

px1999 wrote: post #20
tarr11 wrote: post #15

Interesting that they put this in a Git repo (instead of TFS), but only to then push it to CodePlex (instead of Github)

I don't have any proof to provide (and if I did, it would all be anecdotal) but I've heard rumours that Microsoft are planning on breathing life into codeplex and have an exciting/significant set of changes in the pipeline (which should improve on some of the things that make using DVCS painful). Considering Team Foundation Service, project Kudu/Git deploy on Azure etc. it makes sense to think that Microsoft are maki…

What things are making DVCS painful?

Re: Microsoft Open Sources their Entity Framework ORM

#25

Post by Smudge »

mythz wrote: post #23

EF is another overly architected + bloated fx from Microsoft. It's over 12x slower than other Micro ORMs like Dapper + OrmLite - Benchmarks at: http://www.servicestack.net/benchmarks/#dapper The benefit of Micro ORMs is that they bind to clean re-usable POCO's (which by nature can be re-used as DTO's, ViewModels, etc). Most of them also add features as DRY extension methods over the underlying ADO.NET System.Data.* i…

Not sure which version of EF those benchmarks are using, or how representative it is. For what it's worth, the EF team has been focusing on performance for EF5 and is making some promising improvements:

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/adonet/archive/2012/02/14/sneak-prev...

(Disclosure: I work at Microsoft)

Re: Microsoft Open Sources their Entity Framework ORM

#26

Post by Retric »

mythz wrote: post #23

EF is another overly architected + bloated fx from Microsoft. It's over 12x slower than other Micro ORMs like Dapper + OrmLite - Benchmarks at: http://www.servicestack.net/benchmarks/#dapper The benefit of Micro ORMs is that they bind to clean re-usable POCO's (which by nature can be re-used as DTO's, ViewModels, etc). Most of them also add features as DRY extension methods over the underlying ADO.NET System.Data.* i…

Ok, let's check this benchmark out, wait 500 iterations for a total of 651ms = ~1ms per iteration and no version numbers ahh never mind.

Re: Microsoft Open Sources their Entity Framework ORM

#27

Post by NDizzle »

klausjensen wrote: post #2

This is so awesome. Partly as a developer who enjoys open source software, but also in part because decisions like this makes life much easier, when you suggest using open source in some a large corporations, where they have a very conservative approach to open source.

Yeah, what I really like is that MS just open sourced a thing that is used in places that tend to not use open source software.

Talk about getting a foot in the door.

Re: Microsoft Open Sources their Entity Framework ORM

#28

Post by mythz »

Smudge wrote: post #25
mythz wrote: post #23

EF is another overly architected + bloated fx from Microsoft. It's over 12x slower than other Micro ORMs like Dapper + OrmLite - Benchmarks at: http://www.servicestack.net/benchmarks/#dapper The benefit of Micro ORMs is that they bind to clean re-usable POCO's (which by nature can be re-used as DTO's, ViewModels, etc). Most of them also add features as DRY extension methods over the underlying ADO.NET System.Data.* i…

Not sure which version of EF those benchmarks are using, or how representative it is. For what it's worth, the EF team has been focusing on performance for EF5 and is making some promising improvements: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/adonet/archive/2012/02/14/sneak-prev... (Disclosure: I work at Microsoft)

The benchmarks are from StackOverflow's Open sourced Dapper ORM project - the source of which is contained in their repo: http://code.google.com/p/dapper-dot-net/

Re: Microsoft Open Sources their Entity Framework ORM

#29

Post by mythz »

Smudge wrote: post #25
mythz wrote: post #23

EF is another overly architected + bloated fx from Microsoft. It's over 12x slower than other Micro ORMs like Dapper + OrmLite - Benchmarks at: http://www.servicestack.net/benchmarks/#dapper The benefit of Micro ORMs is that they bind to clean re-usable POCO's (which by nature can be re-used as DTO's, ViewModels, etc). Most of them also add features as DRY extension methods over the underlying ADO.NET System.Data.* i…

Not sure which version of EF those benchmarks are using, or how representative it is. For what it's worth, the EF team has been focusing on performance for EF5 and is making some promising improvements: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/adonet/archive/2012/02/14/sneak-prev... (Disclosure: I work at Microsoft)

If you guys are so "open" why aren't your performance advances compared in context against other ORMs? Benchmarks means a lot more in context and are more meaningful when they're compared to alt fx's on the same hardware specs / RDBMS / network configuration, etc.

But I guess it doesn't matter when you're still be the most popular .NET package http://nuget.org/packages (580k) whilst remaining more than a factor of times slower than the competition - that's the .NET OSS ecosystem for you.

Re: Microsoft Open Sources their Entity Framework ORM

#30

Post by untog »

cek wrote: post #4

This makes me even more bullish on Xamarin/Mono. As Miguel de Icaza of Xamarin tweeted this morning after this was announced: "Wow @scottgu announces that Microsoft open sourced the Entity Framework, Mono's Achilles heel" I believe if you are building mobile clients and need to target more than one platform you should do your UI with the native APIs on each platform, but should use something like Mono to achieve as m…

It is crazy how C# is one of the few languages you can actually use to develop both iPhone and Android apps (as well as WP, obviously). It's a great language- I just wish that a license for MonoTouch didn't cost $400.

Also, does anyone know how to develop for MonoTouch using Visual Studio? I want to like SharpDevelop but I just can't... and of course, VS doesn't run on OSX.

(I haven't tried SharpDevelop in over a year- it might be dramatically better these days, but I don't think so)

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