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Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

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Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#261

Post by friend_Fernando »

verteu wrote: post #220

They also do a lot of compulsory psychiatric detention: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/psychiatric-bulletin... > Finnish mental health legislation takes a medical approach to compulsory measures, emphasising the need for treatment of psychiatric patients over civil liberties concerns... Finland has the highest rates of detention per 100 000 inhabitants, about 214 compared with 93 in the UK and 11 in Italy. >…

> I should mention that I've seen fairly convincing cross-sectional evidence that homelessness is more related to the housing market than mental illness

This is absolutely the right diagnosis. For instance, SROs used to be very affordable.[1] Placing someone into housing was well within the means of local governments and non-profits.

In Coppola's 1974 movie The Conversation, a large portion of the titular dialogue is about a homeless person Williams' character spots while walking around a crowded Union Square. That's how much homelessness stood out back then.

[1] https://ccsroc.net/s-r-o-hotels-in-san-francisco/

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#262

Post by carlosjobim »

segasaturn wrote: post #91
stevenicr wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My first read of this document leads me to believe that there are only about 341,000 housing units available for rent, there are some for sale at an average price of $373,000.. but many or most of the empty housing units are like second homes and such and not 'available'. So we have 350k open units and 700k people without homes, average rent is around $1500.. just looking at the data my guess is that we have about 70…

Those houses sitting empty with no-one in them is exactly why the price of rent is so high. The supply is there but it's being hoarded by 1% of the population. Write laws that would force people to rent out their secondary houses, condos and apartments (with the threat of having it seized if they don't) and watch the prices immediately start to fall.

It's not 1% of the population hoarding the empty houses. It's your elderly relatives.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#263

Post by tialaramex »

lbrito wrote: post #246
verteu wrote: post #220

They also do a lot of compulsory psychiatric detention: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/psychiatric-bulletin... > Finnish mental health legislation takes a medical approach to compulsory measures, emphasising the need for treatment of psychiatric patients over civil liberties concerns... Finland has the highest rates of detention per 100 000 inhabitants, about 214 compared with 93 in the UK and 11 in Italy. >…

Edit - ok, I see the mistake. Thanks. "Finland has the highest rates of detention per 100 000 inhabitants, about 214" If by detention you mean incarceration, that is still shy of half of the US rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_ra...

No, these aren't criminals. Finland doesn't think mad people have somehow committed a crime, it just won't let them leave. They're detained against their will until the doctors decide they've fixed the problem.

Compare the decision not to let your five year old have pudding because she hit her brother and refused to apologise, versus the decision not to let her jump into the tiger pit because she might die. These are both restraints on this kids' freedom, but they come from very different places.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#265

Post by sudosysgen »

dragonwriter wrote: post #223
sudosysgen wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Large scale public housing is driven by the state or federal governments, which can simply ignore NIMBYs and local zoning laws. The issue with public housing is not NIMBYism.

> Large scale public housing is driven by the state or federal governments, which can simply ignore NIMBYs and local zoning laws. No, they aren't. They are generally run by local housing authorities with state and federal financial participation, and, in any case, there have been basically no major new public housing projects in the several decades, with many existing projects decommissioned, and public housing assis…

There have been no large scale public housing projects in a long time. The only time those were a thing, they were driven at the federal and state level. It's simply not possible for local governments to operate at the scale and expertise needed for this.

The world is larger than the US - state and federal level public housing can be done and it can be done well, and at a scale it's only way it can be done. The fact it hasn't in the US doesn't mean it's impossible.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#266

Post by Rendello »

peab wrote: post #83
thePhytochemist wrote: post #50

This issue is very relevant for me since I have been homeless since May. It's been a bad run of being a target of criminal activity, unemployment and just running out of money during my job search. I cope with a mix of volunteering, overpriced housing (think $1200/month for a room in a rural area before I ran out of money for that), catsitting, house-sitting, staying with family and sleeping in my ancient car. Althou…

The housing situation in Canada is insane and is so obviously due to not building enough housing and bringing too many people into the country via immigration. The fact that it costs 1200$/month for a room in a rural area is incredibly damning. I went to college in Ottawa, and now I live in Austin Texas. It's similar in size, although Austin has been growing more lately. Curiously, they are also both capitols, colleg…

> Ottawa has no shortage of land

Relatedly, post-amalgamation Ottawa is very big:

https://old.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/fb3tzy/the_size_of...

This is also an interesting (if less relevant) Ottawa size comparison:

https://old.reddit.com/r/Suburbanhell/comments/ov59fv/round_...

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#267

Post by fragmede »

carlosjobim wrote: post #245
cousin_it wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What nonsense. Did you hear me proposing nationalizing all industry? Having a state ideology? Closing the borders? Removing freedom of speech? No, what I proposed was giving people free housing. Another thing I'd propose is giving people free healthcare. Both these things are good ideas. Mentioning the USSR doesn't make them bad ideas.

I'm not bothered by if you think it's a good idea or a bad idea. If you want to learn about the largest undertaking of the exact housing idea you are proposing, there is a wealth of knowledge available from programs that involved entire nations and isn't just an idea in your head.

Okay, how about this program? It's a bit dated, but it comes from a country I hope you won't find as objectionable as the USSR.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housing_Act_of_1949

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#268

Post by rqtwteye »

IncreasePosts wrote: post #94
thePhytochemist wrote: post #50

This issue is very relevant for me since I have been homeless since May. It's been a bad run of being a target of criminal activity, unemployment and just running out of money during my job search. I cope with a mix of volunteering, overpriced housing (think $1200/month for a room in a rural area before I ran out of money for that), catsitting, house-sitting, staying with family and sleeping in my ancient car. Althou…

With all due respect, why volunteer? I notice this with a lot of homeless people I chat with (there's a lot here in Boulder) - many of them volunteer their time at various charities while being homeless. Wouldn't it be better devoting 100% of your spare time to getting back on your feet, and then volunteer, or donate?

From my experience you can’t devote 100% of your time to getting back on your feet and search for jobs. If you have trouble finding a job it gets too depressing after a while and you need something positive where you actually see results.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#269

Post by saulpw »

1propionyl wrote: post #211
andrewla wrote: post #92

Without digging too deep into the nature of the statistics they use, I'm a little skeptical of this. The transition to using the word "homeless" has resulted in transforming something we can't easily measure -- "drug addicted or mentally ill people being a public menace" -- into something that we can measure -- "people without a good living arrangement". Sure, the latter is important in a lot of ways too. And there h…

> It's nearly impossible to fix. The horrors of involuntary commitment vs. the horrors of not having involuntary commitment vs. the horrors of using the criminal justice system vs. the horrors of not using the criminal justice system. I think, frankly, and I base this on experience with family undergoing involuntary commitment in Europe... we really are still a bit collectively traumatized or basing our takes on what…

It can be compassionate in other places, but I think the US has proven itself to lack compassion in some pretty essential ways.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#270

Post by fragmede »

thfuran wrote: post #205
mmooss wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. People deliberately persuade the public of things all the time. Some persuade them of absolutely false, awful things with regularity.

When you say "things", I assume you don't mean "to change deeply held values and cultural traditions".

Like eating meat? We've been doing that for millenia, yet somehow there's grass roots vegetarian and vegan movements all over the place.
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