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Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

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Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#241

Post by INTPenis »

I'm proud of all the socialist policies here in Sweden, and our neighbors. But a lot of times these things are posted as comparisons with the US, and let's get real, there is no comparison. The United States as a country is vastly different from any nordic european country.

So stop holding these countries with insignificant populations up as beacons of light. I think the problem with the US is very clear to me as an outsider observer. It's a vast country that is so big that technically it's still being colonized. And in order to speed up this process there is unchecked capitalism. And you can never rely on a benevolent billionaire to solve your problems. Only the government can be held responsible for its citizens.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#242

Post by ty6853 »

timewizard wrote: post #231
verteu wrote: post #220

They also do a lot of compulsory psychiatric detention: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/psychiatric-bulletin... > Finnish mental health legislation takes a medical approach to compulsory measures, emphasising the need for treatment of psychiatric patients over civil liberties concerns... Finland has the highest rates of detention per 100 000 inhabitants, about 214 compared with 93 in the UK and 11 in Italy. >…

"Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" does not automatically mean "good, moral, and upstanding lifestyle." To the extent that people have a natural right to exist and society does not I think it should be contingent on administrators to prove the standard they're applying is actually reasonable and non discriminatory.

The standard ought to be they have or imminently are going to harm others. Like actually harm a real victim, criminally by violence or taking property. If they want to live in a gutter worshipping lizard king, well, not everyone has the same idea of the pursuit of happiness.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#243

Post by sonofhans »

pavlov wrote: post #158
andrewla wrote: post #92

Without digging too deep into the nature of the statistics they use, I'm a little skeptical of this. The transition to using the word "homeless" has resulted in transforming something we can't easily measure -- "drug addicted or mentally ill people being a public menace" -- into something that we can measure -- "people without a good living arrangement". Sure, the latter is important in a lot of ways too. And there h…

What is the question you’re asking here? I’m Finnish and I have a close family member with a severe mental illness, so I should be reasonably well positioned to answer your question. But it doesn’t make any sense to me. How does any of this relate to homelessness? To get people off the streets, you give them a place to live. Then you can start solving their other problems. It’s common sense.

In some US popular culture “drug addict” is code for “weak or immoral person.” There’s very little empathy or understanding of people who are much less fortunate; there’s plenty of evidence in this thread.

This misguided moral compass outweighs even sensible practices like harm reduction. People would rather see junkies die on the street of hepatitis than give them free housing and needles. It satisfies some primal need that, eventually I hope, our species will be better off with less of.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#244

Post by lostlogin »

Carrok wrote: post #49
ipaddr wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When they refuse to go inside do you jail them? Some cities with big hearts have been through this before.

Everything won't be perfect immediately, so let's do nothing instead! /s

It’s an interesting phenomenon that seems universal. People point to any failure anywhere in a system and then right it off in its entirety.

Is there every a system of any sort that someone doesn’t try to exploit?

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#245

Post by carlosjobim »

cousin_it wrote: post #203
carlosjobim wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you're proposing is classical Soviet communism. Particularly Khrushchev era communism. Much have been said and written about it, if you're interested.

What nonsense. Did you hear me proposing nationalizing all industry? Having a state ideology? Closing the borders? Removing freedom of speech? No, what I proposed was giving people free housing. Another thing I'd propose is giving people free healthcare. Both these things are good ideas. Mentioning the USSR doesn't make them bad ideas.

I'm not bothered by if you think it's a good idea or a bad idea. If you want to learn about the largest undertaking of the exact housing idea you are proposing, there is a wealth of knowledge available from programs that involved entire nations and isn't just an idea in your head.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#246

Post by lbrito »

verteu wrote: post #220

They also do a lot of compulsory psychiatric detention: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/psychiatric-bulletin... > Finnish mental health legislation takes a medical approach to compulsory measures, emphasising the need for treatment of psychiatric patients over civil liberties concerns... Finland has the highest rates of detention per 100 000 inhabitants, about 214 compared with 93 in the UK and 11 in Italy. >…

Edit - ok, I see the mistake. Thanks.

"Finland has the highest rates of detention per 100 000 inhabitants, about 214"

If by detention you mean incarceration, that is still shy of half of the US rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_ra...

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#247

Post by gotoeleven »

timewizard wrote: post #231
verteu wrote: post #220

They also do a lot of compulsory psychiatric detention: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/psychiatric-bulletin... > Finnish mental health legislation takes a medical approach to compulsory measures, emphasising the need for treatment of psychiatric patients over civil liberties concerns... Finland has the highest rates of detention per 100 000 inhabitants, about 214 compared with 93 in the UK and 11 in Italy. >…

"Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" does not automatically mean "good, moral, and upstanding lifestyle." To the extent that people have a natural right to exist and society does not I think it should be contingent on administrators to prove the standard they're applying is actually reasonable and non discriminatory.

What about babies and children? What about enfeebled old people? Clearly some people can't take care of themselves. Presumably you don't think babies and alzheimers patients should be left to roam free. Why are severely mentally ill people any different?

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#248

Post by Avicebron »

segasaturn wrote: post #65
NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How could the United States end homelessness? It is a mix of federal government, state governments, and local/county/municipal governments. The level of government best suited to do the actual work is hamstrung... if any one city fixes homelessness (somehow), more homeless will show up. If they do that again for the new arrivals, more homeless show up. The first to solve it is punished with tens of thousands of newly…

Create a federal jobs program to build apartments in large quantities, not just in cities but in rural, suburban and exurban areas as well. Anybody who's an American citizen and able bodied (including ex-convicts and felons) can apply and get a good paying job with health insurance. Use the federal government's power of eminent domain to override zoning laws and seize land that's being sat on, and finally pay for it…

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought of this, pour government money into taking anyone unemployed and give them solid jobs building/improving/managing infrastructure like housing, any public good, parks, roads, train tracks, whatever it is as long as it's a net positive.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#249

Post by lostlogin »

mmooss wrote: post #163
ipaddr wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Canada the majority of shelter beds go to refugee claimants. I believe it is highly like many illegals in the US are homeless and make up the majority of homeless people. They are not part of the numbers you provided.

> In Canada the majority of shelter beds go to refugee claimants. Is there data someplace that shows it? > I believe it is highly like I believe that angry gods cause rain. What does it matter?

In 2022, the majority (90.3%) of shelter users were Canadian citizens, which has been the case for all years of analysis since 2015. The proportion of refugees and refugee claimants in the shelter system was 2.0% in 2022, up from 2021 (0.9%) but down compared to pre-pandemic (2019, 4.1%). Pandemic travel restrictions in 2020 and 2021 may have contributed to a decrease in the number of asylum claims, with a partial recovery in 2022.

https://housing-infrastructure.canada.ca/homelessness-sans-a...

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#250

Post by h_tbob »

My problem is this:

Being homeless is not inherently wrong. But I feel when a society makes camping on common ground a crime - like native Americans did, it owes it to them to a) give them land to camp on or b) give them housing.

It shouldn’t be a crime to sleep, ever. It horrifies me that the “conservative” Supreme Court could deny the most fundamental right to existence, literally jailing people for sleeping.

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