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Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

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Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#211

Post by 1propionyl »

andrewla wrote: post #92

Without digging too deep into the nature of the statistics they use, I'm a little skeptical of this. The transition to using the word "homeless" has resulted in transforming something we can't easily measure -- "drug addicted or mentally ill people being a public menace" -- into something that we can measure -- "people without a good living arrangement". Sure, the latter is important in a lot of ways too. And there h…

> It's nearly impossible to fix. The horrors of involuntary commitment vs. the horrors of not having involuntary commitment vs. the horrors of using the criminal justice system vs. the horrors of not using the criminal justice system.

I think, frankly, and I base this on experience with family undergoing involuntary commitment in Europe... we really are still a bit collectively traumatized or basing our takes on what happened prior here in the US from past abuse of involuntary commitment systems.

It can be compassionate. It can help people get psychiatric and psychological help they didn't know how to access. It can help get people back on their feet and transition them into a return to normalcy. It can work.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#212

Post by cousin_it »

bluefirebrand wrote: post #207
cousin_it wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's still much better for a country to have a bunch of untidy annoying people housed for free, than to have the same bunch of untidy annoying people live on the street and serve as a constant reminder to everyone: "keep working and don't annoy the boss or you could be homeless too".

They will still be on the street most of the time though The street is where they panhandle for money and get their drugs

They'd sleep at home and use drugs mostly at home, so still a big improvement. Panhandling doesn't bother me as much if I know the people are housed.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#213

Post by sudosysgen »

TOMDM wrote: post #184
m0llusk wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Psychiatry has some of the worst reproducability of any science. People who are forced to live on the streets without good access to services begin to exhibit symptoms of psychosis within one to two days and lose those symptoms after a similar duration of one or two days with housing. In Europe such a policy might make sense, but in America where being dumped on the street is rather common the situation is different.…

> Psychiatry has some of the worst reproducability of any science. People who are forced to live on the streets without good access to services begin to exhibit symptoms of psychosis within one to two days and lose those symptoms after a similar duration of one or two days with housing. Is this a studied phenomenon I can read about? I'd appreciate any literature suggestions if you have them.

There is a lot of literature on acute sleep deprivation causing symptoms of psychosis, and there is a lot of literature on acute sleep deprivation as a result of homelessness.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#214

Post by sudosysgen »

teractiveodular wrote: post #178
enaaem wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People hate om commie blocks but it was an excellent solution to mass produce affordable housing in war torn Europe. The free market is full of cheap mass produced stuff. Why can't housing be mass produced? Why are there not more economic options? It's almost always restrictive regulations that stops these solutions from happening.

Good luck getting commie blocks pushed through planning approvals today. NIMBYs in general are violently against any kind of public housing.

Large scale public housing is driven by the state or federal governments, which can simply ignore NIMBYs and local zoning laws. The issue with public housing is not NIMBYism.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#215

Post by dyauspitr »

mmooss wrote: post #155
dyauspitr wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s definitely cultural. I’ve been to every major city in the US and I don’t think I’ve ever seen a homeless Indian. Some groups have broken familial cultures that does not churn out good citizens. Did the US in the past play a major role in breaking down those groups and surrounding them with abject poverty that makes it hard to escape from? Absolutely.

India is overwhelmed with poverty far beyond anything I've seen in the US. The people of India started from even worse poverty and have generally made progress (especially since recently-deceased PM Singh). I'm not criticizing. But holding forth India's culture [1] as a model of preventing homelessness is pretty incredible. [1] India may have the largest, most diverse collection of 'cultures' within one national bord…

I’m talking about Indian homeless people in the US.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#216

Post by enaaem »

wormlord wrote: post #64
NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How could the United States end homelessness? It is a mix of federal government, state governments, and local/county/municipal governments. The level of government best suited to do the actual work is hamstrung... if any one city fixes homelessness (somehow), more homeless will show up. If they do that again for the new arrivals, more homeless show up. The first to solve it is punished with tens of thousands of newly…

This argument is so lame. "Actually the overall structure of the USA is designed so that its basicalyl impossible to solve the crisis". You're not wrong in the fact that America is a shit country designed to intentionally to use homelessness as an implicit threat against the working class. You are wrong in the sense that all the things you listed aren't reasons, just excuses to cover up the intentionality of homeless…

Yeah if you really want to end homelessness you will find a way, if not, you will find excuses.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#217

Post by grahamplace »

andrewla wrote: post #92

Without digging too deep into the nature of the statistics they use, I'm a little skeptical of this. The transition to using the word "homeless" has resulted in transforming something we can't easily measure -- "drug addicted or mentally ill people being a public menace" -- into something that we can measure -- "people without a good living arrangement". Sure, the latter is important in a lot of ways too. And there h…

Charles Lehman was on the Ezra Klein show recently[1] and had a useful definition for disorder, re: your first point.

This may not be exactly the quote, but it was something like "Disorder is domination of public space for private purposes."

As an SF resident, that really resonated; day-to-day quality of life here (for me, at least) feels much more impacted by that type of "disorder" than "homelessness" generally (obviously we need housing solutions too)

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/18/opinion/ezra-klein-podcas...

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#218

Post by dyauspitr »

nineplay wrote: post #164
dyauspitr wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s definitely cultural. I’ve been to every major city in the US and I don’t think I’ve ever seen a homeless Indian. Some groups have broken familial cultures that does not churn out good citizens. Did the US in the past play a major role in breaking down those groups and surrounding them with abject poverty that makes it hard to escape from? Absolutely.

Have you ever seen a homeless Indian in India? I would assume not, since evidently Indians have intact familial cultures that churn out good citizens.

Yes I have seen plenty of homeless people in India.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#219

Post by andriamanitra »

127 wrote: post #82

Also -40C winters might have something to do with it.

-40°C is extremely rare in Southern Finland where most people live. In Helsinki the average temperature is about -6°C in the coldest months of the year, and at worst it might drop down to around -15 to -25°C (depending on the year).

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#220

Post by verteu »

They also do a lot of compulsory psychiatric detention: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/psychiatric-bulletin...

> Finnish mental health legislation takes a medical approach to compulsory measures, emphasising the need for treatment of psychiatric patients over civil liberties concerns... Finland has the highest rates of detention per 100 000 inhabitants, about 214 compared with 93 in the UK and 11 in Italy.

> If at the end of the 3-month period it is considered likely that detention criteria are still fulfilled, new recommendations MII and MIII are filed and the renewed detention is then valid for 6 months. However, this second period of detention has to be immediately confirmed by a local administrative court.

edit: I should mention that I've seen fairly convincing cross-sectional evidence that homelessness is more related to the housing market than mental illness: https://www.ucpress.edu/books/homelessness-is-a-housing-prob... , https://www.nahro.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/NAHRO-Summi...

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