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Orca that carried dead calf for weeks appears to be in mourning again

nytimes.com

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Re: Orca that carried dead calf for weeks appears to be in mourning again

#221

Post by s1artibartfast »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #216
s1artibartfast wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some places sex the eggs. Germany, France, Switzerland and many other places completely do without so it is hardly mandatory. Other places use male chickens for meat, despite them being sub-optimal. I think the grinding of male chicks is an interesting case because it's actually pretty low on the suffering and distress spectrum, but high on the visceral reaction scale

> grinding of male chicks is an interesting case because it's actually pretty low on the suffering and distress spectrum, but high on the visceral reaction scale And nothing requires they be ground alive versus e.g. introduced into a nitrogen atmosphere and then minced. (Or simply neutered, raised and sold as capon.)

or feed them live to an alligator farm or zoo

Re: Orca that carried dead calf for weeks appears to be in mourning again

#222

Post by lotsofpulp »

mrguyorama wrote: post #219
lotsofpulp wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s considered not okay if we replace vegetarian with skin tone.

One is something you were born with and cannot change, and the other is a choice of lifestyle you make. If you can't see the difference between those two scenarios, that's a huge problem.

The cause or mutability the attribute has nothing to do with the reasonableness of ascribing a certain prior probability to the attribute.

Also, many hundreds of millions of people in the world are born into families that raise them as vegetarians, is that so dissimilar from being born with a certain skin tone?

Re: Orca that carried dead calf for weeks appears to be in mourning again

#223

Post by aziaziazi »

yesfitz wrote: post #207
aziaziazi wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually there’s many people defining vegan that eat eggs (me) and honey (many vegans). Vegans aren’t as extremist as people see them or as common dictionaries define them. Most don’t define themselves by « I don’t consume any animal product whatsoever », of if they do it’s just a simplification. For the think you feel absurds: - honey is usually done by placing queen in a room she can’t escape. Also the honey is sto…

You are incorrect. Vegans absolutely define themselves by not consuming any animal products, myself included. "Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, hum…

(My current egg consumption is ~4/year)

Thanks for sharing that thought. I strongly adhere to the vegan society definition. I think "as far as is possible and practicable" should be followed by "and beneficial to the overall goal", which is obvious but would make the phrase too cumbersome.

Let me share my situation with eggs: in the family I’m the one that leaded the shift, from flexitarian to vegetarian to (99%) vegan. My GF likes the principle and is willing to shift but also needs more time to change her habits, one by one. One of the very last habits are eggs, and she’s not ready to stop it yet, but do avoid buying them in any form. So she bring three chickens in a ~30m2 parc with a tree and plants etc… It’s still a cage and I’m not proud. The chickens are a more rustic race than the eggs producers breed because she figured out they suffer less by not being breed-ingineer eggs factories, so they lay during 2/3 weeks every 6/12 month. When that happens and she won’t be home for a while, I eat the eggs. Last time was around May I think. Someone in this thread suggest to give the eggs to a neighbor so they buy less from the store, that is a great idea I will definitely consider. Removing the chickens would create a mess in my relationship with GF, wish is not "practical" and could even in the end make her consuming more animals product because of a defensive psychological mode in reaction.

To the extremism and if people consider me (or others) vegan or not, here’s a few thoughts:

- a colleague a once told me I’ll never be a vegan because I "have" animals, which is a form of exploitation for my pleasure. There’s also many "vegans" that do have cats and dogs (in captivity) and buy food for them. Is it beneficial to the veganism goal to exclude each other’s on the last percent of our animal consumption? I don’t like them buying meat for their cats but telling them so wouldn’t help veganism progress.

- what about a "Muslim" that have a beer once per year ? An "altruist" that buy a (child made) Bangladesh apparel ? A "monogamous" that do adultery once? I don’t think they should be excluded from the definition they believe in because of a tiny deviation or not-yet-perfection. They should be listen and companion instead.

- what about vegans that use soaps in public places? Buy stuff colored in red without knowing the provenance? Buy glossy lemons?

The limit of "practical" is fuzzy and IMHO debating it doesn’t really serve the overall goal. I’m very happy to be in the same boat as you, my friend, even if we don’t share the same room.

Re: Orca that carried dead calf for weeks appears to be in mourning again

#224

Post by renewiltord »

Der_Einzige wrote: post #195
renewiltord wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, yeah, that’s fine. If people are reacting this way because they’re religiously vegan, that makes sense. I’m not, so the anxiety fish who’s been going to therapy for years is not of any significance.

No, Many of those in india will eat Chicken - but not beef. The view of seeing most as either "meat eaters" or "vegetarians" or "vegans" is very "eurocentric"

Sure sure, if they are upset about the neurotic whale for religious reasons it doesn’t matter what chickens they eat. I’m happy to accept that’s why they’re upset. I personally don’t care that much about a cow with intergenerational trauma.

Re: Orca that carried dead calf for weeks appears to be in mourning again

#225

Post by aziaziazi »

barbazoo wrote: post #194
aziaziazi wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually there’s many people defining vegan that eat eggs (me) and honey (many vegans). Vegans aren’t as extremist as people see them or as common dictionaries define them. Most don’t define themselves by « I don’t consume any animal product whatsoever », of if they do it’s just a simplification. For the think you feel absurds: - honey is usually done by placing queen in a room she can’t escape. Also the honey is sto…

> I don’t know what eggs production you consider ethical. In my country, the best quality eggs you can fin in the supermarkets comes from chickens that were born in the exact same factory farms as factory chickens In the case of personal backyard poultry it really depends what’s your ethical stance. I often see people that have them in a cage not so big, with no grass (chickens destroy the grass!), no trees, etc… tha…

I agree those farms are somewhat better. I don’t know where you live but here in France they get the baby chickens from the exact same factories as the industrial farms. Breeding themself at scale would be such a pain that it’s not economically viable in any way. There might be exemptions thought.

Girl-chicken (excuse my English) require to produce male-chicken, which often get killed at birth because the meat chicken are not from the same breed. Also the egg-breed is such intense that they produce eggs in an insane frequency compared to a rustic breed, which result in them being exhaust way before their lifespan. It’s very similar to the cow breeds that produce 40l milk/day compared to the 6/7l for historical breeds.

Re: Orca that carried dead calf for weeks appears to be in mourning again

#226

Post by tomcam »

jvanderbot wrote: post #145
cloverich wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always have mixed feelings about this. It's sad. But how is her pod supporting her exactly? Are they bringing her food? If so is that food the dead offspring of other animals? I feel these kinds of stories often have a kind of selective empathy for the focused animal. Ultimately nature is extraordinarily cruel absent humans; imo humans are the only hope for something better, if such a thing even makes sense.

I've recently taken up hunting, mostly because my rural family prioritizes it. The natural world is full of unimaginable cruelty. Wolves will take down young deer and eat them alive while parents watch. Bears will pin down whatever they can catch and who cares if it is alive. On and on, the amount of bloodshed required to support an omnivore/carnivore is simply bananas. Killer whales are hyper-intelligent aquatic nig…

Cats and raccoons, at the very least, frequently kill just for fun. We chicken owners, for some mysterious reason, get very attached to those silly little dinosaurs and it is not unusual at all for a raccoon to come in and just bat the heads off the chickens without eating anything.

Re: Orca that carried dead calf for weeks appears to be in mourning again

#227

Post by tomcam »

Daub wrote: post #14
andy_ppp wrote: post #4

Yes, it made me think about animals panicking so much before slaughter that they often have heart attacks. And dairy cows who have their babies slaughtered who cry for weeks. Maybe these are apocryphal stories, but we are very much trained to believe we shouldn’t anthropomorphise animals. I hope that we are able to grow meat in a way without suffering as soon as possible.

As someone who has worked on farms i can verify that such things happen. I personally witnessed sheep behaving exactly as decided in The Silence of the Lambs. Our sheep were famously noisy and certainly were used to being moved around in lorries but when the abattoir lorry turned up you could almost smell their fear. I also witnessed a cow storm through four fences in order to be reunited with her calf. The irony: Th…

That reads like dark satire.

Re: Orca that carried dead calf for weeks appears to be in mourning again

#228

Post by bamboozled »

maxbond wrote: post #131
Klonoar wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I was mostly starving hungry What? Vegetarian doesn't necessarily mean you lose all sources of animal protein, there's no real reason to be starving on the diet.

It's pretty common for would-be vegetarians to be "carbotarians" and fail to feed themselves properly because they simply don't know any better and eat primarily bread and pasta. I also had this experience of being a ravenous carbotarian, but my roommates were all vegetarians and taught me. If you don't know vegetarians, look to athletes and home chefs for advice. Tl;Dr combine a grain with a legume at least once a d…

Cooking a stake, is a lot easier than making a curry is kind of where it gets tricky for me.

For now I make a chicken sandwich for lunch, take like 5-10 minutes, fills me up, what do I do as a vegetarian.

I love the idea of it, I just think that being a vegetarian can be a luxury and takes more time for some people, especially who have larger frames and appetites.

Re: Orca that carried dead calf for weeks appears to be in mourning again

#229

Post by bamboozled »

aziaziazi wrote: post #104
csomar wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real crime is that alternatives are expensive due to how our new economy is structured. I personally prefer oatmilk (oatside) to dairy milk. However, it’s too damn expensive that I find myself only drinking it from time to time. Now how is a vegetarian milk more expensive than a full cycle of cow milk (cows are too burdening to maintain) you might ask?!? My guess is that we are seeing something along the lines of…

Do It Yourself! You can beat milk price: You already got the oat. Got a blender? Grind those little flakes with water and a spoon of your favorite oil. Et voilà ! Pro tips: - filter for extra smoothness but no need if you intent to mix with whole oat flakes - 1h in the fridge and mix again for double extra smoothness - pinch of salt or cinnamon or cacao… yummi - bored of oat? Check your supermarket shelf for other id…

Doesn't milk contain protein ? Do oats contain the same amount of protein?

Re: Orca that carried dead calf for weeks appears to be in mourning again

#230

Post by neom »

sitkack wrote: post #214
neom wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.google.com/search?q=rat+not+eating+after+death+o... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S277240852... . I've kept rats for a long time, I don't know why, but I do know they change behaviour for a period of time once one dies.

Video of scientists getting a laugh response from tickled rats. https://www.scientificamerican.com/video/eavesdrop-on-ultras...

Rats are the best: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jo_EG7XqZQ :D
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