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LA wildfires force thousands to evacuate, NASA JPL closed

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Re: LA wildfires force thousands to evacuate, NASA JPL closed

#611

Post by s1artibartfast »

mulmen wrote: post #601
s1artibartfast wrote: post #580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think having the option helps firefighters, helps prisoners, and helps society. Everyone is better off. Firefighters get additional support combating a huge problem, prisoners get shorter sentences, in society gets better fire prevention leading to fewer lives and Land Lost

Professional firefighters have to compete with prisoners for pay depressing firefighting wages. Prisoners have to do dangerous work and suffer long term health consequences for no compensation. Reduced sentences don’t count because the base sentence can be set to whatever the state requires to meet slave labor demands. Society loses because slave labor artificially reduces the cost of natural disasters. If slave labo…

I think the means are ethical, as well as the ends.

At the end of the day, I dont think each of the things you said are true. I dont think there is wage competition, I dont think the state is setting sentences based on labor demands, and I dont think there is an impact to locations of habitation.

Re: LA wildfires force thousands to evacuate, NASA JPL closed

#612

Post by defrost »

CapricornNoble wrote: post #476
defrost wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why is there apparently no water in the fire hydrants? They emptied the tanks fighting the fire. From the article in the GP comment: The Los Angeles Department of Water and Power in a Wednesday press conference refuted claims, including those made by Caruso, that water tanks in Pacific Palisades weren’t fully filled ahead of the fire. Departmental officials said the three tanks in the area were filled to capacity w…

Thanks for the info. So is the take-away here that the tanks are under-specified? Should they have maybe 10x the total capacity? Have there been other indications over the years that tank capacity might be a problem with a large enough fire?

Not my country .. but .. I did read that the Fire Chiefs wanted more tanks but NIMBY resistance prevailed.

Fire tanks are generally "slow to fill* and "fast to empty" in relative terms - they form a local cache for rapid drawdown at rates much faster than "normal" water system draw.

There's also strong element in twitter and US news of petty critic for politic points .. "The hydrants are empty and there's no water" might be that kind of complaint, eg: "we emptied the tanks here holding the fire front back, the front has now moved, the tanks are now refilling" might well be the source of what became a damning meme "the hydrants are empty".

Re: LA wildfires force thousands to evacuate, NASA JPL closed

#613

Post by jandrewrogers »

camgunz wrote: post #584
jandrewrogers wrote: post #568

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Several of your "safe" States are prone to extremely strong earthquakes.

In the last ~7 years only Oklahoma has had a >= 5.0 earthquake (three of them). But even if you move it, you're still under Ohio. https://earthquakelist.org/usa/#latest-earthquakes-mag-5-dis...

Looking at only the last 7 years is a poor standard, and Oklahoma is a known active seismic zone with dedicated USGS risk models. Severe earthquakes occur much less frequently, often less than once per century. US Geological Survey seismic risk maps paint a different picture of actual risk than you are presenting.

For example, you've deemed the New Madrid seismic zone[0] as "safe", despite multiple M7-8+ earthquakes in the 19th century. The Cascadia subduction zone hasn't had a major event in 300+ years but no one considers that seismically safe.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Madrid_seismic_zone

Re: LA wildfires force thousands to evacuate, NASA JPL closed

#614

Post by mulmen »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #611
mulmen wrote: post #601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Professional firefighters have to compete with prisoners for pay depressing firefighting wages. Prisoners have to do dangerous work and suffer long term health consequences for no compensation. Reduced sentences don’t count because the base sentence can be set to whatever the state requires to meet slave labor demands. Society loses because slave labor artificially reduces the cost of natural disasters. If slave labo…

I think the means are ethical, as well as the ends. At the end of the day, I dont think each of the things you said are true. I dont think there is wage competition, I dont think the state is setting sentences based on labor demands, and I dont think there is an impact to locations of habitation.

Then that is the basis of our disagreement. I can’t consider the practice ethical given my understanding of economics, human nature, and history.

These two Wikipedia pages show examples of why I don’t think this practice is ethical.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_St...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Codes_(United_States)

Re: LA wildfires force thousands to evacuate, NASA JPL closed

#615

Post by anon291 »

drawkward wrote: post #487
anon291 wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well good, since professional and volunteer firefighters are the most common arsonists. People with violent criminal records should not be in those fields at all.

Do you have a source for that claim? On the face, it seems pretty outrageous.

Yes .

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/fires-set-by-firefig...

I'm honestly surprised at the downvotes. I thought this was common knowledge.

Re: LA wildfires force thousands to evacuate, NASA JPL closed

#616

Post by trhway »

kristjansson wrote: post #586
trhway wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Even e.g. a cargo 747 has ~750 m3 (=~200k gal h2o) of cargo space, but 112000 kg (=~30k gal h2o) of payload, so one could only fill ~1/6 of the cargo volume with water. yep. Yet they still have to push through the air and have the mass and the cost of the plane for that unnecessary 6x volume. That is because the plane is retrofitted instead of having been built for the purpose of carrying high density payload. (also…

I think I (and maybe others) understood 'drone' to mean something closer to quad-copters. Sounds like you're actually proposing something closer to water-filled cruise missiles? Which actually seems like a compelling idea. I'd guess there are some questions around how to make the vehicle recoverable/reusable, or else how to avoid causing more fire than you're putting out when the vehicle splatters against terrain, an…

>I think I (and maybe others) understood 'drone' to mean something closer to quad-copters. Sounds like you're actually proposing something closer to water-filled cruise missiles?

as i said in original post - "not small quadcopters, more like WWII size bombers". I use V1 as a close and real existing example of a drone wrt. size and simplicity/cheapness of construction. Though i think 2x-4x of that size would be more suitable and convenient.

>how to make the vehicle recoverable/reusable

just regular software for a plane type drone. The drone comes, drops the water and returns. Can do it GPS/inertial, AI targeted or remote controlled (like say put a Starlink on it how Ukrainians do it sometimes).

>else how to avoid causing more fire than you're putting out when the vehicle splatters against terrain

while normally the drone would return back, accidental crashes of course unavoidable. You don't have to carry much fuel as the drones can be spread around the state on say a 200km grid. The fuel tank can be made with automatic foam generator or something like this triggered if/when the drone goes down crashing.

Re: LA wildfires force thousands to evacuate, NASA JPL closed

#617

Post by anon291 »

kristjansson wrote: post #597
proc0 wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are blaming it on climate change, and making excuses for the state's management. When you point this out they get angry or passive aggressive like you are some kind of evil person like those evil republicans. It's unbelievable really.

We need to manage the forest! We need prescribed burns, fire roads, lookouts, etc. But we also need sensible development at the interface, stricter brush-clearance laws, emissions restrictions to attempt to mitigate climate change, etc. But people get angry because 'forest management' has become a shorthand for the former without the latter (or in denial of the latter). It's been promulgated as an _alternative_ polic…

Who the hell cares what some climate change denying Republican says? Ca is run by democrats and they categorically refuse to do forest management..

If hearing we need to manage the forest makes you more upset at your fellow Americans rather than more concerned about the viability of your community, you are the problem.

Re: LA wildfires force thousands to evacuate, NASA JPL closed

#618

Post by anon291 »

lightedman wrote: post #494
7e wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Severe drought brought on my climate change is not going to be fixed by “forest management.” There is no forest around any of these fires.

"There is no forest around any of these fires." That is absolutely incorrect, the Los Angeles National Forest is currently on fire. I live here.

I've heard so many on twitter claim there's no forest around LA in some kind of attempt to seem smart. As someone who grew up there i am honestly kind of shocked that these are the same intelligentsia that want us to listen to their pontifications on climate change

Re: LA wildfires force thousands to evacuate, NASA JPL closed

#619

Post by s1artibartfast »

mulmen wrote: post #603
s1artibartfast wrote: post #587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slave labor is the labor of a slave. Removing the labor does not remove the slavery. How do you distinguish incarceration from slavery?

> Slave labor is the labor of a slave. Removing the labor does not remove the slavery. What is happening in California is indentured servitude. I consider that to be a form of slavery. The labor is precisely what makes it slavery. > How do you distinguish incarceration from slavery? The compulsory uncompensated labor. If prisoners received a fair wage and work was optional then I would have no objection. But they don…

I think I would be OK with demonetizing all prisoner labor and stipulating that any particularly risky work must be voluntary.

I dont think it is unreasonable to expect non-voluntary labor to be included as part of a normal sentence. Ideally this non-voluntary work would be limited to supporting prison operations (e.g. cooking, cleaning, upkeep, ect). This work offsets the substantial costs of their incarceration to society and is part of the punishment.

I think it is also reasonable to offer fully voluntary service outside of the prison if it benefits society at large. I think it is reasonable to view this as accelerated restitution to society for their crimes, and reward it with earlier release and additional benefits.

I think the main area where we might agree is preventing the prison (or state) from selling their labor for the benefit of a 3rd party.

Overall, I would like to see the expansion of productive prison labor where possible to provide social benefit (for example cleaning up litter, ect.)

Re: LA wildfires force thousands to evacuate, NASA JPL closed

#620

Post by quesera »

lend000 wrote: post #604
pluto_modadic wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this has to be parody. what?!

I genuinely don't understand what happened to HN. When did curiosity, hypothetical discussion, and an interest in solving problems with technology become a source of derision and insecurity? Are you on the right forum?

There's a disaster going on today, this very hour, and your suggestions are absurdly impractical.

There's a time for "just spitballing here", or "divergent thought, no bad ideas". And you can probably find some folks today who want to think about this tragedy in that frame of mind.

But. There's a disaster going on today, this very hour, and your suggestions are absurdly impractical.

I did not downvote you, but I suspect the others who did are conveying a distaste for such abstract thought about this extremely visceral ongoing disaster.

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