Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

LA wildfires force thousands to evacuate, NASA JPL closed

theregister.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

581–590 of 691 posts

Re: LA wildfires force thousands to evacuate, NASA JPL closed

#581

Post by s1artibartfast »

mulmen wrote: post #574
s1artibartfast wrote: post #555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anyone says prisoners having a choice means they're not prisoners or they are free from jail. Nobody is claiming picking bunks means they're not a prisoner. It's still a free choice among bunks

Yes, exactly! And the presence of a choice in labor doesn’t change the fact that they’re slaves.

What's your definition of slave? Are you saying that they are slaves no matter what? What would make them not slaves?

Are you opposed to all punishments of any sort?

Re: LA wildfires force thousands to evacuate, NASA JPL closed

#582

Post by mulmen »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #566
dragonwriter wrote: post #559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IMO, its not slavery because it is 100% optional. It is slavery because the State requires prisoners to work for the benefit of the State (though there are some choices of what form of work), punishes them additionally for not working, economically exploits that work, and has (through all four branches of government, including the people exercising their power to legislate directly) worked to maintain that conditio…

Where is the requirement to work and how does it punish them additionally ? Sentencing is provided completely independent of labor and 99% of prisoners are ineligible or unable to firefight. >firefighters have been explicitly cited as the reason it is important to maintain that system and maintain prison populations to feed it. Cited by a proponent of maintaining prison populations, or cited as allegations against su…

> Where is the requirement to work and how does it punish them additionally?

Forced prison labor is legal in California. This means if a prisoner refuses to work they can be punished for that refusal. This could be with solitary confinement or revoking or removing good behavior benefits.

> Sentencing is provided completely independent of labor and 99% of prisoners are ineligible or unable to firefight.

Firefight maybe but 40% of California’s prisoners work. A choice in what type of labor doesn’t change the fact that this is slavery.

Re: LA wildfires force thousands to evacuate, NASA JPL closed

#583

Post by s1artibartfast »

mulmen wrote: post #573
solatic wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but it doesn't trigger when you hear about the fire in the abstract. It triggers only once you are face-to-face with the smoke and wall of fire.

Right, this is the loophole in the human psyche that California is exploiting in their slaves.

how so?

Re: LA wildfires force thousands to evacuate, NASA JPL closed

#584

Post by camgunz »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #568
camgunz wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, in good faith, if everyone in "dangerous" areas of the US moved to less dangerous areas, the resulting population density would still be less than Ohio's (~242/mi2, also LA's population density is ~8,000/mi2--well below places like Pittsburgh and Buffalo even--so keep that in mind), and I left Alaska out of both safe and dangerous lists because it's a cheat. And it's very OK there! Winter is fine. I grew up and…

Several of your "safe" States are prone to extremely strong earthquakes.

In the last ~7 years only Oklahoma has had a >= 5.0 earthquake (three of them). But even if you move it, you're still under Ohio.

https://earthquakelist.org/usa/#latest-earthquakes-mag-5-dis...

Re: LA wildfires force thousands to evacuate, NASA JPL closed

#585

Post by baxtr »

harmmonica wrote: post #575
baxtr wrote: post #477

Such a tragedy. I am very sorry for anyone affected by this :( As a non-local it’s hard to judge how big this is. Can anyone point to map or explain to what extend LA is affected? Is it 5% of the area/population or rather 50%?

I saw a sibling comment posted a link to a map, but I wanted to provide you some context. As you can see on those maps, these fires are quite big in terms of land area/acreage. The thing it's important to understand about Los Angeles, though, is that there's a "mountain" range that runs east/west literally right through the city itself (mountain in quotes because as it bisects the city the mountains aren't very tall)…

Thank you so much for this detailed comment!

Very insightful and helpful for me to get the right context.

Re: LA wildfires force thousands to evacuate, NASA JPL closed

#586

Post by kristjansson »

trhway wrote: post #443
kristjansson wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is not that the water bombers are retrofitted, the problem is that water is heavy, so you're up against the physics of flight. An aircraft loaded to its max weight with water (or water-like material like retardant) is going to look empty, visually. Even e.g. a cargo 747 has ~750 m3 (=~200k gal h2o) of cargo space, but 112000 kg (=~30k gal h2o) of payload, so one could only fill ~1/6 of the cargo volume wi…

>Even e.g. a cargo 747 has ~750 m3 (=~200k gal h2o) of cargo space, but 112000 kg (=~30k gal h2o) of payload, so one could only fill ~1/6 of the cargo volume with water. yep. Yet they still have to push through the air and have the mass and the cost of the plane for that unnecessary 6x volume. That is because the plane is retrofitted instead of having been built for the purpose of carrying high density payload. (also…

I think I (and maybe others) understood 'drone' to mean something closer to quad-copters. Sounds like you're actually proposing something closer to water-filled cruise missiles? Which actually seems like a compelling idea. I'd guess there are some questions around how to make the vehicle recoverable/reusable, or else how to avoid causing more fire than you're putting out when the vehicle splatters against terrain, and even more questions around operating the things (autonomously vs. remotely, launch/recovery, ...).

But I do love the image of a satellite spotting a quarter-acre IR hotspot and firing a dozen USFS Tomahawks filled with with retardant to nip it in the bud.

Re: LA wildfires force thousands to evacuate, NASA JPL closed

#587

Post by s1artibartfast »

mulmen wrote: post #582
s1artibartfast wrote: post #566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where is the requirement to work and how does it punish them additionally ? Sentencing is provided completely independent of labor and 99% of prisoners are ineligible or unable to firefight. >firefighters have been explicitly cited as the reason it is important to maintain that system and maintain prison populations to feed it. Cited by a proponent of maintaining prison populations, or cited as allegations against su…

> Where is the requirement to work and how does it punish them additionally? Forced prison labor is legal in California. This means if a prisoner refuses to work they can be punished for that refusal. This could be with solitary confinement or revoking or removing good behavior benefits. > Sentencing is provided completely independent of labor and 99% of prisoners are ineligible or unable to firefight. Firefight mayb…

Slave labor is the labor of a slave. Removing the labor does not remove the slavery.

How do you distinguish incarceration from slavery?

Re: LA wildfires force thousands to evacuate, NASA JPL closed

#588

Post by wtcactus »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #554
wtcactus wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, getting into prison after you committed a crime and were condemned for it, is usually not a free choice.

Totally agree. Once you are in prison, choosing to work or not is a free choice.

The free choice is to whether commit or not the crime that puts you in prison. After that, until you pay your debt to society, the free choices are over.

Re: LA wildfires force thousands to evacuate, NASA JPL closed

#589

Post by bdangubic »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #554
wtcactus wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, getting into prison after you committed a crime and were condemned for it, is usually not a free choice.

Totally agree. Once you are in prison, choosing to work or not is a free choice.

Thirteenth Amendment, Section 1:

“Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, EXCEPT as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.”

Re: LA wildfires force thousands to evacuate, NASA JPL closed

#590

Post by [deleted] »

consumer451 wrote: post #543
sahila wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She cut some 2% of the LA fire department budget, 17M out of 837M. The outrage is politically fueled more than any rationale reasoning.

Seeing people blame the fires on "DEI" is making my head exploded. The fact that otherwise intelligent people are eating it up has made me give up for a generation. It is a truly depressing state of affairs.

[deleted]
Post reply on HN