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LA wildfires force thousands to evacuate, NASA JPL closed

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Re: LA wildfires force thousands to evacuate, NASA JPL closed

#561

Post by jandrewrogers »

friend_Fernando wrote: post #441
mschuster91 wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> More proactive and competent wildfire mitigation would reduce the risk and therefore make insurance premiums more reasonable. Or... not building mansions next to forestry? In Germany we have pretty strict requirements on distances, so it's rare for damages to occur. Also, most of our power grid infrastructure is buried below ground, so videos like the ones circulating on Twitter from arcing lines setting bushes and…

The largest power company in CA is in the process of burying its cables. The risk level is not just affected by proximity to forests. For offshore (Santa Ana) wind events, the riskiest areas are the SW bottom of hills and near canyons. That's where the current LA fires are. IMO, a better prevention measure would be to not build houses out of sticks. That's already the case for much of the housing in Europe. Alas, her…

> IMO, a better prevention measure would be to not build houses out of sticks. That's already the case for much of the housing in Europe. Alas, here in the US the colonial and cabin aesthetics still win out, even when fire-resistant options aren't more expensive.

It is not an aesthetic preference, the US used to construct housing like in Europe through the 19th century.

That style of construction was repeatedly catastrophically destroyed by severe earthquakes, killing many people needlessly, and is now illegal in many regions.

The US became strict about seismic safety after the famous 1906 San Francisco earthquake[0]. A few decades earlier, the 1872 Lone Pine earthquake[1] literally flattened entire towns of European-style construction; some of these are now ghost towns that were simply abandoned and never rebuilt. When you see surviving old masonry buildings, they usually have been retroactively refitted with steel frames to make the masonry mostly decorative.

The regions of the US prone to wildfire are also prone to severe earthquakes, so your options are wood or steel frame construction, neither of which is particularly wildfire resistant but at least it won't collapse during a severe earthquake. Many parts of the US also have to engineer for much higher wind loadings than in Europe.

You can build masonry buildings that meet the seismic standard but that requires a lot of steel and is expensive. Where I live, all modern construction is required to survive a M8.5 earthquake; I've never seen a house in Europe engineered to that standard.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1906_San_Francisco_earthquake

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1872_Owens_Valley_earthquake

Re: LA wildfires force thousands to evacuate, NASA JPL closed

#562

Post by dragonwriter »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #554
wtcactus wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, getting into prison after you committed a crime and were condemned for it, is usually not a free choice.

Totally agree. Once you are in prison, choosing to work or not is a free choice.

> Once you are in prison, choosing to work or not is a free choice.

It is literally not in California (though which work, within bounds that differ by prisoner, may be), and California this year defeated a ballot proposition which would have made your claim true.

Re: LA wildfires force thousands to evacuate, NASA JPL closed

#563

Post by harmmonica »

prennert wrote: post #463

This is probably a naive question because I am not local, but how usual are wild fires during the winter? There seems to be snow large parts of the US and freezing temperatures. In LA it is currently 8°C (46°F), which is not freezing, but also not hot. Does this suggest even bigger fires are to be expected in the summer this year when it is actually hot?

They rarely happen in winter (in modern times at least) because it usually rains starting in late fall. But there's been zero measurable precipitation since, I think, May 2024. It's that issue combined with the extreme winds this week that made the conditions on the ground ripe for this type of fire. Note that the winds themselves are somewhat typical (they're called Santa Ana winds and they happen every year like clockwork), but the severity of the winds this week was extreme. Don't think there have been winds as severe in decades. It was a somewhat predictable cocktail and all of these ingredients aided the severity. No moisture + high winds = high fire risk. High winds = embers easily carried forward igniting additional fires. High winds = grounded firefighting planes and helicopters.

Re: LA wildfires force thousands to evacuate, NASA JPL closed

#564

Post by jandrewrogers »

ramshanker wrote: post #480
bloudermilk wrote: post #170

We lost our house to the Eaton fire this morning. It’s difficult to describe the vastness of the destruction in our community. Everything within a couple square miles of us burned.

What was the major building material? Wood or Concrete? I hear wood houses are a lot more popular in US. Sorry for your loss.

Houses almost all use wood framing. Rarely they use steel framing, which is more expensive and provides worse insulation. None use concrete or masonry because it is illegal to build a house that will collapse during a M7-8 earthquake. Like Japan, construction style in the western US is driven primarily by the requirement to be extremely seismic resistant, since that is a predictable and unavoidable risk.

In Southern California, it is typical to have tile roofs and stucco exteriors, which helps protect against the embers that will rain on your house during a major wildfire.

Re: LA wildfires force thousands to evacuate, NASA JPL closed

#565

Post by dragonwriter »

defrost wrote: post #293
darth_avocado wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The blame starts with the mayor and top brass of the city government. The literal job description involves running the city based on money they have, including prioritizing what’s important. Fire departments and emergency services are the last departments that need budget cuts. Obviously some blame does also fall on the fire chief, but fire departments are usually well run and from the looks of it, there seems to hav…

> The literal job description involves running the city based on money they have, including prioritizing what’s important. Sure, and to that end the Police and Fire together make up in excess of 60% of the entire budget. Should all income go to the Fire Dept? (Obviously not) .. again, I'm an outsider, but from a helicopter perspective there already a good sized portion of the budget going towards Fire as a priority a…

> Sure, and to that end the Police and Fire together make up in excess of 60% of the entire budget.

Of the LA City Fiscal Year 2025 (July 1, 2024 - June 30, 2025) of $12.90 billion, $1.98 billion (15.36%) is Police and $820 million (6.36%) is Fire. Combined, this is less than 22%, not in excess of 60%.

https://openbudget.lacity.org/#!/year/2025/operating/0/depar...

Re: LA wildfires force thousands to evacuate, NASA JPL closed

#566

Post by s1artibartfast »

dragonwriter wrote: post #559
s1artibartfast wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah, I expect there are some foundational differences in world view at play. IMO, its not slavery because it is 100% optional. It is a restricted privilege that prisoners actively seek and compete for. It is sought after because it is an improvement over the alternative. I'm honestly unsure how this can be framed as a negative.

> IMO, its not slavery because it is 100% optional. It is slavery because the State requires prisoners to work for the benefit of the State (though there are some choices of what form of work), punishes them additionally for not working, economically exploits that work, and has (through all four branches of government, including the people exercising their power to legislate directly) worked to maintain that conditio…

Where is the requirement to work and how does it punish them additionally?

Sentencing is provided completely independent of labor and 99% of prisoners are ineligible or unable to firefight.

>firefighters have been explicitly cited as the reason it is important to maintain that system and maintain prison populations to feed it.

Cited by a proponent of maintaining prison populations, or cited as allegations against such a system?

>Had voters passed, and the State acted in accord with, this years proposition banning involuntary servitude, it might be possible to make the argument that prison firefighters were no longer slave labor, but that didn't happen.

What a strange take. Why would the passage of a proposition redefine the reality of the situation?

Re: LA wildfires force thousands to evacuate, NASA JPL closed

#567

Post by drawkward »

baggy_trough wrote: post #537
drawkward wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They certainly hoard more than their "fair share" of wealth.

Nothing certain about that.

100% certain that no human deserves to be a billion times wealthier than the least wealthy human.

Re: LA wildfires force thousands to evacuate, NASA JPL closed

#568

Post by jandrewrogers »

camgunz wrote: post #511
elevatedastalt wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the proposal is for 350 Million people to move to New England?

Well, in good faith, if everyone in "dangerous" areas of the US moved to less dangerous areas, the resulting population density would still be less than Ohio's (~242/mi2, also LA's population density is ~8,000/mi2--well below places like Pittsburgh and Buffalo even--so keep that in mind), and I left Alaska out of both safe and dangerous lists because it's a cheat. And it's very OK there! Winter is fine. I grew up and…

Several of your "safe" States are prone to extremely strong earthquakes.

Re: LA wildfires force thousands to evacuate, NASA JPL closed

#569

Post by dragonwriter »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #566
dragonwriter wrote: post #559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IMO, its not slavery because it is 100% optional. It is slavery because the State requires prisoners to work for the benefit of the State (though there are some choices of what form of work), punishes them additionally for not working, economically exploits that work, and has (through all four branches of government, including the people exercising their power to legislate directly) worked to maintain that conditio…

Where is the requirement to work and how does it punish them additionally ? Sentencing is provided completely independent of labor and 99% of prisoners are ineligible or unable to firefight. >firefighters have been explicitly cited as the reason it is important to maintain that system and maintain prison populations to feed it. Cited by a proponent of maintaining prison populations, or cited as allegations against su…

> What a strange take. Why would the passage of a proposition redefine the reality of the situation?

If the proposition was passed, and the State acted in accord with it (as I stated before, not just the passage, but the action), then the labor would not be coerced, because the mechanisms by which it is currently coerced would be prohibited.

That was the whole point of the amendment, banning California continuing to exploit the penal servitude exception to the 13th Amendment ban on slavery and involuntary servitude.

Re: LA wildfires force thousands to evacuate, NASA JPL closed

#570

Post by mullingitover »

daedrdev wrote: post #560
mullingitover wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general when you're a "prisoner with a job," that's slavery, even if there's some pittance of a wage involved. They're paid $10 a day, let's not pretend this is a fair wage for a fair day's work. This is a form of economic warfare against the working class, who shouldn't have to compete against prison labor.

They also get reduced time. Considering the program is extremely sought after, I think it should continue in light of the fact that its literally what they prefer compared to not doing anything

I don't have a problem with the program, or any prison labor program, as long as it's paying at or above market wages.

We sanction Chinese companies for using prison labor in their products because it's ethically wrong. We shouldn't be engaging in the same practice we sanction other countries for.

Depending on slave labor from prisoners also creates a conflict of interests for society because it creates incentives to imprison people rather than prevent crime. It should never be a smart financial move to imprison your citizens.

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