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Orca that carried dead calf for weeks appears to be in mourning again

nytimes.com

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Re: Orca that carried dead calf for weeks appears to be in mourning again

#171

Post by whimsicalism »

y-curious wrote: post #167
addicted wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s ironic how accepted vegetarians, who have a dietary preference, are in society, and how hated vegans, who have an ethical argument against unnecessary killing of sentient animals, are in society. I only turned vegan a couple of years ago as something clicked and I was able to make the connection between the food I was eating and the animals who were being killed, almost certainly unnecessarily, for that food. Bu…

The problem I have always had with veganism, as someone who has had stints of vegetarianism, is the absurdity of certain restrictions. Milk, I can agree, is bad because of how it's derived. Honey and eggs (sourced ethically) are a restriction I cannot stand behind. I think the dislike of self-labeled vegans is aligned with someone publicizing an extreme decision.

eggs could easily have multiple arguments for it, honey i’ve personally never met someone who was vegan who didn’t have honey

Re: Orca that carried dead calf for weeks appears to be in mourning again

#172

Post by whimsicalism »

throwaway3287 wrote: post #165
addicted wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s ironic how accepted vegetarians, who have a dietary preference, are in society, and how hated vegans, who have an ethical argument against unnecessary killing of sentient animals, are in society. I only turned vegan a couple of years ago as something clicked and I was able to make the connection between the food I was eating and the animals who were being killed, almost certainly unnecessarily, for that food. Bu…

The problem with veganism is that, unless you grow your own food, it does not change the fact that an immense amount of pain and suffering is inflicted on other beings in the production and transportation of the food you eat. It's pure virtue signaling. If they genuinely cared about minimizing suffering, they'd be Jains, not vegans.

uhhhh explain?

is there some extreme amount of suffering that goes into the production of root vegetables because afaik that’s the only distinction between jainism and veganism?

Re: Orca that carried dead calf for weeks appears to be in mourning again

#173

Post by whimsicalism »

voisin wrote: post #138
ornornor wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s how we get all their milk, how we get meat (the calf isn’t kept around for more than a few weeks/months), and rennet to make cheese (it’s the digestion liquid that’s in their stomach while they eat milk, must kill the animal to extract it) Same with eggs, they don’t exist in a vacuum. To get eggs you have to have chickens, and to have chickens you must grind male chicks alive as they hatch because they don’t p…

> And hens aren’t supposed make eggs year round but we make them anyway with artificial lights etc, which drastically shortens their lifespan. I kept a flock of 25-30 hens on my property for a few years. Other than moulting they produce eggs ease round. The production slows drastically in the dark winter months for the older hens (1 for 3 days, say) but some continue to produce nearly daily (I think the cycle is some…

the way eggs are industrially farmed is generally not like this

Re: Orca that carried dead calf for weeks appears to be in mourning again

#174

Post by collingreen »

Sammi wrote: post #161
throwaway3287 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I don't find the comment to be without substance. It's a concise and concrete critique.

It's dismissive without substance. The point is discussing if the whale feels grief. A blanket dismissal of all animals feeling anything "just because" is not a critique. If there is some reason science should dismiss everything like this as valueless and not worth even considering then I don't know it yet and a comment talking about that would be constructive.

Re: Orca that carried dead calf for weeks appears to be in mourning again

#175

Post by y-curious »

whimsicalism wrote: post #171
y-curious wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem I have always had with veganism, as someone who has had stints of vegetarianism, is the absurdity of certain restrictions. Milk, I can agree, is bad because of how it's derived. Honey and eggs (sourced ethically) are a restriction I cannot stand behind. I think the dislike of self-labeled vegans is aligned with someone publicizing an extreme decision.

eggs could easily have multiple arguments for it, honey i’ve personally never met someone who was vegan who didn’t have honey

At the risk of this devolving into a typical online veganism argument: why are eggs bad? Say I keep 3 chickens in a coop in my backyard. They're going to produce unfertilized eggs that will just go to waste

Re: Orca that carried dead calf for weeks appears to be in mourning again

#176

Post by ASalazarMX »

AnonHP wrote: post #153
jvanderbot wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've recently taken up hunting, mostly because my rural family prioritizes it. The natural world is full of unimaginable cruelty. Wolves will take down young deer and eat them alive while parents watch. Bears will pin down whatever they can catch and who cares if it is alive. On and on, the amount of bloodshed required to support an omnivore/carnivore is simply bananas. Killer whales are hyper-intelligent aquatic nig…

> But there is _no_ version of a carnivore or meat-eating omnivore that does not involve killing and savagery Absolute statements are not useful in this context. Vultures are obligate scavengers who eat the flesh of already dead animals as a practice. The dead animal could be due to death from natural causes (diseases, old age, injury, poisoning, starvation) or hunting by other animals. So there are some versions. Al…

Focusing on edge cases doesn't change the overall tendency of nature being savage and cruel. Even herbivores like cows or horses will sometimes eat small animals given the chance. Even the humble mold, fungus, and bacteria will happily eat you alive given the chance.

Surviving in nature is outcompeting others, regardless of how fair it seems to our current culture.

Re: Orca that carried dead calf for weeks appears to be in mourning again

#177

Post by whimsicalism »

y-curious wrote: post #175
whimsicalism wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

eggs could easily have multiple arguments for it, honey i’ve personally never met someone who was vegan who didn’t have honey

At the risk of this devolving into a typical online veganism argument: why are eggs bad? Say I keep 3 chickens in a coop in my backyard. They're going to produce unfertilized eggs that will just go to waste

1. I have personally never met someone who only eats backyard eggs. The conditions of commercial egg producers are well documented.

2. You are still essentially using another living being for resources. Why keep the chickens in the first place? They are only going to waste because you bought the chickens in the first place, probably also from an industrial breeder, essentially subsidizing the industry.

3. If your way of producing eggs is more ethical, you could sell your backyard eggs to displace the (pretty awful) commercial producers rather than eating them yourself.

I agree that the case against exclusively consuming your own backyard eggs is weaker, but I also don’t think we are describing a considerable proportion of actual egg consumers in the West.

Re: Orca that carried dead calf for weeks appears to be in mourning again

#178

Post by collingreen »

whimsicalism wrote: post #171
y-curious wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem I have always had with veganism, as someone who has had stints of vegetarianism, is the absurdity of certain restrictions. Milk, I can agree, is bad because of how it's derived. Honey and eggs (sourced ethically) are a restriction I cannot stand behind. I think the dislike of self-labeled vegans is aligned with someone publicizing an extreme decision.

eggs could easily have multiple arguments for it, honey i’ve personally never met someone who was vegan who didn’t have honey

As an anecdote, I'm nearly vegan and don't have honey.

I think it's interesting how easy it is to criticize veganism as extreme when, to me (and in many anecdotes here and in the rest of the world) it is actually the result of trying to reconcile all my actions behind the same non-controversial principles.

Maybe "rigid" vs loose/flexible would be a better description but that isn't how it feels to people; vegans just existing conjures feelings of disdain and dismissals of extremism (I felt that way before as well, just like some other commenters on here).

In a general sense, people absolutely hate being told to change or that they have been wrong about something. It puts our backs up immediately and it fires up an emotional storm to start invalidating what they imply about us.

We're fascinating as humans.

Re: Orca that carried dead calf for weeks appears to be in mourning again

#179

Post by aziaziazi »

y-curious wrote: post #167
addicted wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s ironic how accepted vegetarians, who have a dietary preference, are in society, and how hated vegans, who have an ethical argument against unnecessary killing of sentient animals, are in society. I only turned vegan a couple of years ago as something clicked and I was able to make the connection between the food I was eating and the animals who were being killed, almost certainly unnecessarily, for that food. Bu…

The problem I have always had with veganism, as someone who has had stints of vegetarianism, is the absurdity of certain restrictions. Milk, I can agree, is bad because of how it's derived. Honey and eggs (sourced ethically) are a restriction I cannot stand behind. I think the dislike of self-labeled vegans is aligned with someone publicizing an extreme decision.

Actually there’s many people defining vegan that eat eggs (me) and honey (many vegans). Vegans aren’t as extremist as people see them or as common dictionaries define them. Most don’t define themselves by « I don’t consume any animal product whatsoever », of if they do it’s just a simplification.

For the think you feel absurds:

- honey is usually done by placing queen in a room she can’t escape. Also the honey is stolen of the bees. They didn’t choose to be here and they don’t work in the purpose of human eating it. Live it in the nest and they won’t make so much honey. Less bees will die of exhaust also. I got a neighbor that participate in « honey in the village » program. She’s not vegan or vegetarian in any way. Once she saw what’s happening she decided to not harvest. It’s still a delicious product with many nutritious benefits and the bees doesn’t suffer as much as other livestocks so many vegans choose to eat it (again veganism is not about perfection or absolutism)

- I don’t know what eggs production you consider ethical. In my country, the best quality eggs you can fin in the supermarkets comes from chickens that were born in the exact same factory farms as factory chickens In the case of personal backyard poultry it really depends what’s your ethical stance. I often see people that have them in a cage not so big, with no grass (chickens destroy the grass!), no trees, etc… that’s better that a factory but it’s still a miserable cage life. When I go in a farmers market and see someone selling "fallibly farms backyard eggs" I have no way to asses how they live.

Re: Orca that carried dead calf for weeks appears to be in mourning again

#180

Post by renewiltord »

Der_Einzige wrote: post #121
renewiltord wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So are cows and no one ever goes “Aw man, nice wagyu. I hope no one ever slices you up and serves you all fatty on a grill”. That would be weird as fuck. You wouldn’t be welcome at any barbeque.

Besides the obvious "Vegans and Vegetarians", you'll find that an awful lot of folks from India and surrounding regions will not be down with any consumption of cattle what-so-ever.

Okay, yeah, that’s fine. If people are reacting this way because they’re religiously vegan, that makes sense. I’m not, so the anxiety fish who’s been going to therapy for years is not of any significance.
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