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Orca that carried dead calf for weeks appears to be in mourning again

nytimes.com

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Re: Orca that carried dead calf for weeks appears to be in mourning again

#111

Post by aziaziazi »

throwaway290 wrote: post #100
sbmthakur wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back in my ancestral village the practice was to let cow nurse her calf and get the remaining for the owner's family. This kinda ensured co-existence. The modern dairy industry has all evil practices baked into its operations. It is the thing that keeps me from going vegetarian. Even with going off meat, I would still harm the livestock by consuming dairy. A lot of vegetarians (at least those who virtue signal) do no…

What if no one was strictly vegan or vegetarian but everyone refused to buy food created by inhumane suffering and tortured conditions. Can't make it illegal but can make it very unfashionable. Just need more people to see things people see on a farm, then you gotta be a psycho to not care. Just no one properly lived on a farm next to animals these days when most people move to megapolises...

> Just need more people to see things people see on a farm

There's many "educational farms" to show kids live farms animals and sometimes pick the eggs and milk a cow. I'm very confused about them: it's good to let urban kids see-smell-touch real farms animals. However they have nothing in common with modern farming, even the not-inhumane ones.

BUT telling a 6yo toddler "look that cute cow, this is where your morning milk is from" will engrave it deep in the way they see farming. One day or another they will learn about factory farming but what you learn at 16yo doesn't "engrave" as easy and deep as at 6. I mean yes you quickly understand that education farms are not the reality but it require a big mental shift to overcome the feeling that the milk you drink in the morning is from an inhumane famr, especially when everyone around keeps doing it (I don't blame them, it's cheap, easy, convenient, traditional, delicious, practical...).

Some schools or parents brings their child in real farms which is a bit better, but it still doesn't depict the reality for 99% of consumption (think gelatin candies, croissants, cakes, ice creams...).

For the courageous -- DONT SHOW THAT TO YOUR TODDLER (yet) -- 8 hours of pigs in a typical/normal gas chamber that probably will end up in soap/jelly/bacon. : https://www.farmtransparency.org/videos?id=hg8cyu393v

Re: Orca that carried dead calf for weeks appears to be in mourning again

#112

Post by dotancohen »

ValentineC wrote: post #70
spondylosaurus wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think non-dairy milks are artificially expensive so much as cow milk is artificially cheap. At least in the US. Federal dairy subsidies and all that.

Oat/almond milk suppliers are definitely pricing them artificially expensive. Here in Singapore, where soy milk has been around for decades, soy milk in both fresh and UHT forms tend to be much cheaper than dairy.

How much does 1 liter of almond or oat milk substitute cost in Singapore? How much does one liter of milk cost?

Re: Orca that carried dead calf for weeks appears to be in mourning again

#113

Post by dotancohen »

mulmen wrote: post #110
moi2388 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you met the average person? I would highly contest this claim. Let an average person alone in nature and they’ll starve within a month

That's longer than an Orca will live in a Wal Mart.

If we're swapping biomes I think that the naked human would starve in the open ocean in three days. If he didn't drown in three hours.

Re: Orca that carried dead calf for weeks appears to be in mourning again

#114

Post by Panoramix »

aziaziazi wrote: post #111
throwaway290 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if no one was strictly vegan or vegetarian but everyone refused to buy food created by inhumane suffering and tortured conditions. Can't make it illegal but can make it very unfashionable. Just need more people to see things people see on a farm, then you gotta be a psycho to not care. Just no one properly lived on a farm next to animals these days when most people move to megapolises...

> Just need more people to see things people see on a farm There's many "educational farms" to show kids live farms animals and sometimes pick the eggs and milk a cow. I'm very confused about them: it's good to let urban kids see-smell-touch real farms animals. However they have nothing in common with modern farming, even the not-inhumane ones. BUT telling a 6yo toddler "look that cute cow, this is where your morning…

When I was a small child in a rural environment, my uncle slaughtered a lamb for eating. It was a bloody messy hell. It was an eye opener but it didn't have the impact you think it had, if anything it desensitizes you. My uncle also showed respect and gratefulness to the animals and I also understood why we don't waste animal products.

Re: Orca that carried dead calf for weeks appears to be in mourning again

#115

Post by dotancohen »

wruza wrote: post #93
mystified5016 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Practicality. To put it bluntly, the majority of humans do not think it is immoral in principle to kill and eat an animal. After all, that's how biological life just is. At an individual level, you can choose to think it's wrong but you do have to simply accept the fact that not everyone agrees, and very likely there will always be someone who disagrees. To most people, killing an animal for food is not a problem con…

I think this less-more thing is synthetic and pointless. One person stops eating meat, it just reduces the demand and there’s one less cow that suffers, but not in a sense that it becomes happy now. It just stops existing (best case). Is that a win? Hard to tell, cause the question is highly philosophical. Is to not exist better than to exist and suffer? Is suffering of 10M worse than suffering of 100K? Is 100K actua…

  > One person stops eating meat, it just reduces the demand and there’s one less cow that suffers, but not in a sense that it becomes happy now. It just stops existing (best case). Is that a win?
I've heard this phrased as "meat is murder, but vegetarianism is genocide".

If humans were to stop eating meat, certain species of animal would go extinct.

Re: Orca that carried dead calf for weeks appears to be in mourning again

#116

Post by mulmen »

dotancohen wrote: post #113
mulmen wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's longer than an Orca will live in a Wal Mart.

If we're swapping biomes I think that the naked human would starve in the open ocean in three days. If he didn't drown in three hours.

Open ocean sure but I can see orcas from my house. The average person is still going to know to swim to land and forage for food, even if they fail. But orcas won’t have the first idea how to navigate self checkout.

Why is the human naked? Does the Orca get pants?

What are we talking about?

Re: Orca that carried dead calf for weeks appears to be in mourning again

#117

Post by aziaziazi »

Panoramix wrote: post #114
aziaziazi wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just need more people to see things people see on a farm There's many "educational farms" to show kids live farms animals and sometimes pick the eggs and milk a cow. I'm very confused about them: it's good to let urban kids see-smell-touch real farms animals. However they have nothing in common with modern farming, even the not-inhumane ones. BUT telling a 6yo toddler "look that cute cow, this is where your morning…

When I was a small child in a rural environment, my uncle slaughtered a lamb for eating. It was a bloody messy hell. It was an eye opener but it didn't have the impact you think it had, if anything it desensitizes you. My uncle also showed respect and gratefulness to the animals and I also understood why we don't waste animal products.

Ok I admit all I write is only guess... in fact what you said makes me relate to some of my mother stories about her childhood. Thanks for remind me that.

Re: Orca that carried dead calf for weeks appears to be in mourning again

#118

Post by NewJazz »

dotancohen wrote: post #115
wruza wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this less-more thing is synthetic and pointless. One person stops eating meat, it just reduces the demand and there’s one less cow that suffers, but not in a sense that it becomes happy now. It just stops existing (best case). Is that a win? Hard to tell, cause the question is highly philosophical. Is to not exist better than to exist and suffer? Is suffering of 10M worse than suffering of 100K? Is 100K actua…

> One person stops eating meat, it just reduces the demand and there’s one less cow that suffers, but not in a sense that it becomes happy now. It just stops existing (best case). Is that a win? I've heard this phrased as "meat is murder, but vegetarianism is genocide". If humans were to stop eating meat, certain species of animal would go extinct.

That's not true. We would still need food for dogs and cats. And even if not, then we could still keep cows around just for the vibes. We don't eat Tule Elk (anymore). It is still around. In fact it is still around precisely because we decided to stop hunting it to extinction.

Re: Orca that carried dead calf for weeks appears to be in mourning again

#119

Post by bamboozled »

aziaziazi wrote: post #99
sbmthakur wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back in my ancestral village the practice was to let cow nurse her calf and get the remaining for the owner's family. This kinda ensured co-existence. The modern dairy industry has all evil practices baked into its operations. It is the thing that keeps me from going vegetarian. Even with going off meat, I would still harm the livestock by consuming dairy. A lot of vegetarians (at least those who virtue signal) do no…

One way to reduce that practice is to simply reduce one consumption of meat/milk, no need to be fully gandhi to improve some cow’s life. You anyway can’t save the world alone. There’s a ton of mushrooms and fabaceae, very cheap nutritious and as much delicious if you learn to cook them well (like meat). My favorite is Tempeh which combine both! And quite cheap if you make it yourself. http://tempeh.info/

I like the stuff, but interestingly, I found it easiest to buy in Indonesia, Australia and the USA. Outside of that, it's hard to get or very expensive.

Re: Orca that carried dead calf for weeks appears to be in mourning again

#120

Post by bamboozled »

Panoramix wrote: post #114
aziaziazi wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just need more people to see things people see on a farm There's many "educational farms" to show kids live farms animals and sometimes pick the eggs and milk a cow. I'm very confused about them: it's good to let urban kids see-smell-touch real farms animals. However they have nothing in common with modern farming, even the not-inhumane ones. BUT telling a 6yo toddler "look that cute cow, this is where your morning…

When I was a small child in a rural environment, my uncle slaughtered a lamb for eating. It was a bloody messy hell. It was an eye opener but it didn't have the impact you think it had, if anything it desensitizes you. My uncle also showed respect and gratefulness to the animals and I also understood why we don't waste animal products.

I grew up doing a lot of diving, I'd put myself into the ocean, there were sharks and other dangers, but I caught my own fish and I never ever felt bad about it. I could selective take what I needed, I'd never take a mother / pregnant fish if I could help it. I could tell most of the time.

You also get to see how the wild world works, and most fish would prefer to be taken by a skilled spear fisherman than have their face mauled off by a squid, at least as far as I could tell.

Unfortunately we live in a world with 9 billion people on it, which means we don't have the room to grow and harvest all our own food. In my opinion, that's the issue. Sourcing all our food "ethically" is basically not possible.

I'd much prefer to be producing and hunting my own food.

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