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Orca that carried dead calf for weeks appears to be in mourning again

nytimes.com

71–80 of 261 posts

Re: Orca that carried dead calf for weeks appears to be in mourning again

#71
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we are very much trained to believe we shouldn’t anthropomorphise animals We shouldn't anthropomorphize animals. Instead, the point here is that emotions are not anthropic; humans do not have a monopoly on emotions. Which is to say, we should be sure not to think that "grief" means the same thing for an orca that it means to a human; yet naturally animals do grieve in their own ways. (Heck, "grief" doesn't even mea…

yeah, the funny thing about the anthropomorphism debate is that supposedly the thing that makes humans different from (other) animals is our "advanced" brain, i.e. language, civilization, etc. in other words, all the ways we have to manage emotions, and all of our "non-emotional" functioning. So we have somehow evolved to be able to better manage emotions. Ok, so if we grant all of that, then haven't we just said tha…

Not really common to 'animals' in general, for example reptiles only have the very basic instincts of eat, reproduce, fight.

Insects don't have emotions, they barely have hyper specialized sensors as brains.

However, emotions efficiently direct behaviours in mammals. They enact immediate and persistent responses.

We can say without much doubt that emotions in mammals are similar to our own emotions.

The big unknowns are animals further away from us, which are demonstrably intelligent, like birds and octopuses.

Re: Orca that carried dead calf for weeks appears to be in mourning again

#72
post #36
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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> going against every bit of our human evolution, without guilt-tripping the rest of us for doing what nature designed us to do If nature designed for this, then why do people feel any guilt at all?

To prevent over-hunting to the point that prey becomes extinct? I'm not having a hard time imagining how shame could be an evolutionary advantage.

Re: Orca that carried dead calf for weeks appears to be in mourning again

#73
post #3

> Tahlequah is using much of her energy to cling to the dead calf, which weighs about 300 pounds, and she is unable to forage for food, scientists said during a news briefing on Thursday. They said that her closely knit pod was supporting her. Other female orcas, especially her sister, have been observed to be consistently at her side. Utterly tragic. It's also singularly evil the devastation humans have brought to s…

I always have mixed feelings about this. It's sad. But how is her pod supporting her exactly? Are they bringing her food? If so is that food the dead offspring of other animals? I feel these kinds of stories often have a kind of selective empathy for the focused animal. Ultimately nature is extraordinarily cruel absent humans; imo humans are the only hope for something better, if such a thing even makes sense.

I'm not a vegetarian etc., but you could argue that humans are both the only hope for something different, but also the only species capable of a particular sort of cruelty that comes from the society we live in for animals and other people.

That is, animals may kill to eat, but humans slaughter animals to get tastier/more convenient/etc., food.

Re: Orca that carried dead calf for weeks appears to be in mourning again

#74
post #20

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Lions are quite dumb, Humans are very smart and can be vegan or vegetarian because of civilization and economic specialization. Unrelatedly, elephants are quite a bit smarter than lions and herbivorous, as are many primates!

Orcas are considered to be very intelligent but they hunt and kill for sport.

Re: Orca that carried dead calf for weeks appears to be in mourning again

#75
post #63

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I believe this is nice, but how do regular people actually find the time to care about this stuff? If you have kids, bills, a job, listen to crap from politicians all day, where do you find the time to be this empathetic. My kids school gives them milk as part of lunch, my kid likes milk now. You have to live in a very special world to get around this. I was a vegetarian for a while, I was mostly starving hungry and…

> I was mostly starving hungry What? Vegetarian doesn't necessarily mean you lose all sources of animal protein, there's no real reason to be starving on the diet.

I guess it's not eating flesh, but it's still causing a lot of harm is what I'm hearing.

In our family, we eat vegetarian every second night. Basically vegan 3/4 nights a week. However I do find myself running to the fridge for cheese or a whey protein shake for desert quite often.

Re: Orca that carried dead calf for weeks appears to be in mourning again

#76
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe this is nice, but how do regular people actually find the time to care about this stuff? If you have kids, bills, a job, listen to crap from politicians all day, where do you find the time to be this empathetic. My kids school gives them milk as part of lunch, my kid likes milk now. You have to live in a very special world to get around this. I was a vegetarian for a while, I was mostly starving hungry and…

> listen to crap from politicians all day This part I recently decided I will stop doing. It will not be easy and I may fail, but I think my mood requires it.

It's pretty bleak, I agree. I'm concerned regular people are going to be more and more trampled on in the near future.

Re: Orca that carried dead calf for weeks appears to be in mourning again

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe this is nice, but how do regular people actually find the time to care about this stuff? If you have kids, bills, a job, listen to crap from politicians all day, where do you find the time to be this empathetic. My kids school gives them milk as part of lunch, my kid likes milk now. You have to live in a very special world to get around this. I was a vegetarian for a while, I was mostly starving hungry and…

The western idea of making things better for animals often involves abstinence. Which is unpalatable if you are a meat eater. The messaging should be to reduce your meat consumption. By reported national averages, I eat 25% of the meat eaten by the average Australian. And I don’t feel that I’m missing out.

Yeah, we eat vegetarian / vegan every second night.

Re: Orca that carried dead calf for weeks appears to be in mourning again

#78
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having seem children play I think many in would be quite comfortable killing a pig and draining it's blood if they could. You see children chasing pigeons - and I don't think it's just to hug them if they catch one. I say this without commenting in favor of either side of this debate which I am undecided on and reading with interest. But I think it's important not to shy away from the reality that cruelty and the des…

Sure, but what about eating? What you mention is a typical destructive behavior noticed in kids and a tendency of violence/killing which even adults have. Key point here is: will they also eat the bird after killing it? Is the killing done here for the sake of eating ? or for the sake of enjoyment/destruction (whatever other reason).

i spent part of my childhood on a farm. i watched rabbits and pigs being slaughtered. and of course we ate them.

recently our neighbors slaughtered a goat that my kids had seen alive just before, and we all ate it. we also eat the chicken from the kids grandparents village home that they saw being slaughtered there.

kids killing animals for no reason are an exception, as are kids refusing to eat animals that they saw alive.

if they weren't we'd all have become vegetarians centuries or even millennia ago.

(slightly related: it bothers me that some people think kids should be protected from experiencing how meat is produced. if you eat it, you should know where it came from)

Re: Orca that carried dead calf for weeks appears to be in mourning again

#79

https://freefromharm.org/animal-farmer-turned-vegan/jackie-s...

I believe this is nice, but how do regular people actually find the time to care about this stuff? If you have kids, bills, a job, listen to crap from politicians all day, where do you find the time to be this empathetic. My kids school gives them milk as part of lunch, my kid likes milk now. You have to live in a very special world to get around this. I was a vegetarian for a while, I was mostly starving hungry and…

As the other commenter, some differential resistance that's within your capacity should be sufficient. Eating proportionately less sends a signal to the supply chain, which adapts to such signals. Comparatively, you can imagine being vegetarian to be extremely easy in, say, India; because the supply chain is built to support such a diet. (Of course, vegetarianism in India is likely to still mete lot of animal suffering as well.)

Re: Orca that carried dead calf for weeks appears to be in mourning again

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I had to kill animals to eat meat, I would have zero problem doing so. You’re free to make your own choices, but you’re not going to change anyone’s stance on eating meat with your arguments. Get off your high horse.

the key word is "had". I would eat any animal any day if I "had" to and had no other food source.

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