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I had to take down my course-swapping site or be expelled

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Re: I had to take down my course-swapping site or be expelled

#261
post #7

Update: I immediately took down my class project site after receiving yesterday’s ultimatum. I still don’t think the simple demo site violated the letter or spirit of the registration rules, but I took it down because I always want to operate in good faith. They followed up today to thank me for doing it, but also indicated that they were putting a hold on my account anyway. As a result, I am not going to be able to…

talk to a lawyer, it doesn’t mean taking action, but I’ve been in a number of situations at work that were quite “grey”, and the value of knowing where I stood, where the lines were, and what to do/not to do were invaluable. I never planned on taking legal action, but knowing the landscape was invaluable and often kept me out of trouble down the road when people were playing CYA…

Re: I had to take down my course-swapping site or be expelled

#262
post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Upvoting too. > Unless, that is, I agree to work on a comparable solution for the university focused on solving the underlying problem I was building HuskySwap for. They would presumably own the IP and were clear that I wouldn’t be compensated. But it was implied that they would then remove the hold, allowing me to graduate. Wow. Literally blackmailing a student to do illegal work (at least would be categorized like…

Relying on good faith won't help you at all. Someone at the uni has taken this personally, and has attacked you. At this point, if you don't defend yourself - that person has won. Please seek legal advice.

Their response on face value doesn't make sense. But if I had to guess, you inadvertently made someone in the registrar's office look bad. They probably had to answer to "why didn't you think of this?" If that is the case then it makes a lot more sense and is retaliatory behavior. You can't undo their insecurity and loss of face. Therefore you should not expect a reasonable response.

Act accordingly.

Educate yourself on your options. This is why people are recommending a consultation with a lawyer.

Reach out to your friends and contacts in the University. Leverage existing ones to make new ones. Others may be in a stronger position to put pressure on the registrar's office.

Use the news and media to further ratchet up pressure.

Stay positive. Fon't stoop to their level, it won't help you.

And if you have to walk away it won't hurt you too much in the long term. After about 5 years in industry nearly all companies stop caring about credentials. Just get your foot in the door somewhere and shine, that's what I did and it worked out for me 26 years later.

Hang in there.

Re: I had to take down my course-swapping site or be expelled

#263
post #7

Update: I immediately took down my class project site after receiving yesterday’s ultimatum. I still don’t think the simple demo site violated the letter or spirit of the registration rules, but I took it down because I always want to operate in good faith. They followed up today to thank me for doing it, but also indicated that they were putting a hold on my account anyway. As a result, I am not going to be able to…

One half of me is sympathetic with you, the other wonders whether you're trying to get attention for a job (this is how the end of your LinkedIn post makes it sound). It's hard to judge from the outside as you haven't shared the actual writing from UW. I would probably cut this from the end of the LinkedIn post, this makes you look like you're possibly trying to blow this out of proportion for attention: > I'm schedu…

It's possible there's deception here, but I also knew a few kids in high school who graduated with their Associates (equivalent to 2 years of college). This can allow a student to skip the general education courses and focus exclusively on major coursework, which depending on the program and how well the student can schedule classes can mean finishing in 2 years.

Their profile also mentions "Stanford Summer Session" in Jun 2022, which does give college credit, so Associates or not they were definitely more active in pursuing a degree than most high school students.

Re: I had to take down my course-swapping site or be expelled

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a university professor, and this is batshit crazy. Who ? As in not "they" or "the university", but who within the university? Can you tell where the directive is coming from? If this comes from, say, the Provost's Office then this probably can't be handled internally. (The position of Provost is the #2 position at a university, and the provost usually runs the show while the President or Chancellor goes schmoozin…

The head coach of football gets paid $4mil a year (4x the president) and is the highest payed employee. The top 7 staff are all sports related. Is this, like, common in the US? It seems batshit insane to an outsider.

A college like UW may have sports revenue on order of $300M, much of which goes to the university, and means students may pay less than if there were no sports. Dig carefully through UW finances, which are usually public record. Paying a coach whose program is a massive profit center enough to have a team of quality enough to land bigger TV deals may be a financial benefit.

Re: I had to take down my course-swapping site or be expelled

#265
post #7

Update: I immediately took down my class project site after receiving yesterday’s ultimatum. I still don’t think the simple demo site violated the letter or spirit of the registration rules, but I took it down because I always want to operate in good faith. They followed up today to thank me for doing it, but also indicated that they were putting a hold on my account anyway. As a result, I am not going to be able to…

> I am not planning to get a lawyer involved as I have faith that UW leadership will make it right in the end.

An officious word for lawyer is counsel, because that’s what they’re for: they offer legal counsel. You don’t technically “talk” to a lawyer , instead you ask them questions. They answer. That’s why client-attorney privilege exists at all: so you can feel free to seek counsel, ie ask questions, without fear of those questions ever being held against you.

You’re right not to talk to a lawyer. Instead, you should ask them questions. Like “what’s the worst that can happen?” and “what are my options if it does?” and “ what documents / evidence would I need to defend myself?” and “what would you advise me not to do?”.

As a silly rule of thumb: every message to a lawyer should have at least one question mark in it. That is the role of legal counsel in our society. Use that privilege. Seek counsel.

Then, if you don’t want to do anything with their advice, that’s ok.

Re: I had to take down my course-swapping site or be expelled

#266
post #262
post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Relying on good faith won't help you at all. Someone at the uni has taken this personally, and has attacked you. At this point, if you don't defend yourself - that person has won. Please seek legal advice.

Their response on face value doesn't make sense. But if I had to guess, you inadvertently made someone in the registrar's office look bad. They probably had to answer to "why didn't you think of this?" If that is the case then it makes a lot more sense and is retaliatory behavior. You can't undo their insecurity and loss of face. Therefore you should not expect a reasonable response. Act accordingly. Educate yourself…

Seconding this. It's entirely likely the registrar is this petty and boneheaded. It's less likely that their boss is though, this is a really bad look for the university.

Personally I would find a way to contact the president of the university (possibly through university PR, who also care about public image) and simply state,

"The registrar is asking me for quid pro quo, that I develop software for them in exchange to restore my ability to register for classes."

and include a screenshot of that communication.

Additionally, consider "agreeing" to their demands, if they will unblock you immediately. Register for classes, then reneg on your half of the "deal". Even if they then retaliate, that strengthens your position (a) that they are engaging in quid pro quo, and (b) that there's no valid reason that you should be barred from registering for courses, and also buys you some time.

Re: I had to take down my course-swapping site or be expelled

#267

Why would the school admin go nuclear over a request to integrate with the registration system, a system that is clearly intended to be used by applications: > “The Student Web Service gives your application access to information in the Student database such as course data, registration data, section data, person data, and term data (general academic data).” It doesn't make any sense. Was there something left out of…

Imagine an entire institution where your goal is to minimize the ability for anyone to convince people you were negligent, and you hate your job because it doesn't matter how you do it, you have little control outside of whatever fiefdom and backroom channels you've assembled.

The kind of person who doesn't leave that role tends to be either someone who enjoys accumulating or wielding power, or would have trouble in roles outside of an institution like that.

Now imagine a person who has almost no power just made a public spectacle about something in your camp that you've been not doing for years even though it's been a well known problem because nobody could make you do anything about it.

You're probably going to go into overdrive and try to kill this story, even if it's not because you'll be directly punished in any way from it (because that's very uncommon in academia), but because this person DARED to challenge you.

...at least, that's my perception from years of time around toxic parts of academia (and some less toxic parts, but.)

I'm not saying the story is true, I don't have enough data to comment, but I have absolutely seen enough academics go off the handle from 0 to 11 to buy this as plausible.

Re: I had to take down my course-swapping site or be expelled

#268
post #6

Reminds me of the time my university made headlines!...for attempting to regulate wifi. https://m.slashdot.org/story/49515

My former institution tried that for a few years - nobody actually obeyed it, but at the time I went there, they still made you pay a separate registration fee on arrival each year for internet access in the dorms, so they didn't put in wireless APs there when they covered the campus, and IIRC they tried to use Cisco's "kill nearby APs that aren't ours" setting before the FCC pointed out that would get them shoved in a locker.

Nobody actually got punished, that I recall, for bringing a wireless router, but that was the nominal policy for a number of years before someone successfully got it into the annual tuition rollup so it stopped being necessary.

To my recollection from when I left the school years after that, though, there still wasn't campus wifi reliably accessible in the dorms. (Of course, half of them also didn't have reliable air conditioning in muggy humid summers and would blow breakers if you tried putting window units in, so...priorities.)

Re: I had to take down my course-swapping site or be expelled

#270
post #91

I went to UW a decade ago, and back then it was pretty common knowledge that you don't fuck with software and the class registration system. Registering for classes was really competitive and they were really strict about making sure that no one had an edge over anyone else by being able to write code. There were plenty of rumors of people being expelled for using scripts to try to get the classes they wanted right w…

it's almost like universities are about controlling an artificial limited access to knowledge than about knowledge uh.

That's what bothers me the most about this. The reason this is even an issue in the first place is because universities are aren't adequately providing what the students want.

So you want to study, say, engineering.

First you have to apply and get admitted to the university, and many people aren't admitted. The acceptance rate I can find for UW is 54% in-state, 46% out of state.

Then the university tells you that if you want to study engineering, you have to study a lot of other non-engineering things it feels like you should study. All of which are pretty costly and time consuming.

You might have to take courses in things you already know, because there are few courses you can test out of and the universities limit how many credits it can bring over.

Then on top of this, the universities don't provide anywhere near enough adequate quality classes for students, which is the whole reason why there's this level of demand in the first place.

Not only do they not provide enough, they know they don't provide enough, so their response is since it's "really competitive" they need to be "really strict about making sure that no one had an edge over anyone else." It's not about making sure students needs are being met, even for classes that the university is forcing on them. It's about restricting students, so that they suffer a roughly equal amount from the university's failures.

The attitude of the universities seems to be that since they're the only game in town, students have to suffer through all of this. Imagine a system where students could take classes from anywhere they want, and then could get a degree just by passing assessments at the university. I imagine the number of people paying huge amounts of money for inadequate classes would plummet.

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