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You can't optimize your way to being a good person

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Re: You can't optimize your way to being a good person

#71
post #67
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An economists perspective would be that your utility function can be whatever you want. According to what you said above, you would be minimizing regret, which is an optimization goal (although it sounds overly dry in that context). Blooms point is that when we take on the emotions of someone else, it has the ability to override our rational decision making and that rational decisions tend to lead to objectively bett…

There's probably some truth to this, and I suppose you can define "objectively better" as "maximizing your optimization goal" or "minimizing the bad stuff" or something, quantifying that however you want. That said, I'm not 100% convinced that my "rational brain" actually is better at making decisions that minimize regret than just relying on emotions. My rational brain is very good at rationalizing shit to where I c…

I think this is all true, with an added nuance:

We typically make decisions with our emotional mind, and justify it with our rational mind after the fact. I believe Bloom is in the camp that we can override that initial emotional impulse, but there are people who disagree with him. In any event, if the end goal is emotional ("minimize regret") I'm not sure there's much to be gained by bringing the rational into it.

The biggest takeaway I had from his book is that being overly emotionally empathetic can make us biased and lose out on the bigger picture, like making one focused on the short-term wants at the cost of longer-term needs. (There are other biased aspects, like the fact that we tend to empathize more with people who are similar to us, that can lead to obvious less-than-great outcomes.)

Re: You can't optimize your way to being a good person

#72
post #71
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's probably some truth to this, and I suppose you can define "objectively better" as "maximizing your optimization goal" or "minimizing the bad stuff" or something, quantifying that however you want. That said, I'm not 100% convinced that my "rational brain" actually is better at making decisions that minimize regret than just relying on emotions. My rational brain is very good at rationalizing shit to where I c…

I think this is all true, with an added nuance: We typically make decisions with our emotional mind, and justify it with our rational mind after the fact. I believe Bloom is in the camp that we can override that initial emotional impulse, but there are people who disagree with him. In any event, if the end goal is emotional ("minimize regret") I'm not sure there's much to be gained by bringing the rational into it. T…

> like making one focused on the short-term wants at the cost of longer-term needs

Yeah, that's fair.

In my previous apartment, there was a guy named Julius. I really liked him, he was very pleasant to talk to, funny, charming, and just very nice.

We were in that apartment for three years, and nothing too remarkable happened, but the last year, Julius fell into some kind of lifestyle that I'm unsure of the details of, but ended up with him constantly stoned, missing teeth, and evicted from the apartment.

He was still in my neighborhood (homeless as far as I could tell), and he would still talk to me, always really polite, but with increasingly-yellow eyes, and it made me really sad, because I wouldn't wish that fate on anyone, let alone someone who was always kind to me.

My wife and I discussed maybe giving him some money to try to get back on his feet, but we decided against it because we were confident that if we did it would likely go to drugs. We really wanted to help, but we were afraid, like you said, it would be a short-term want overshadowing a long term gain.

If I had genuinely thought that writing him a check for $1,000 would dramatically improve his life, I would have done it in a heartbeat, but I didn't, and I felt like there was a good chance it would fuel a bender that would lead to an overdose.

I would occasionally buy him lunch at the nearby Wendy's, and I offered to try and help him fix up his resume to maybe make him more employable, but nothing ever came of that.

We eventually moved from that apartment and I'm not sure what happened to Julius. I hope he's ok, but I suspect that he's probably dead now, from an overdose or alcohol poisoning. A part of me wishes I had given him some money to dig himself out, but I think I made the right choice.

I don't lose sleep over my actions on that one; there wasn't really anything I could have done much different. Sometimes sad shit just happens, and it's no one's fault.

Re: You can't optimize your way to being a good person

#73
post #69
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm guessing from your reply that you don't think its important to emphasise kindness as part of supporting your childrens' growth. If that is the case, what do you emphasise if anything?

You're guessing wrong. Kindness has a merit on it's own and ultimately it's a good idea for a person to decide what they want to be and take responsibility for their choices. Being kind "because there are too many unkind people out there" sounds wrong. I have no idea how they measured the "too many unkind people out there" but lets assume for a moment this balance shifts - then what? They should be unkind because the…

I think the sentiment is that it feels like theres a lot of unkindness in the world and that makes it a worse place and you can either be part of that or you can make the world a better place by striving to be kind. Thats my interpretation anyway.

Re: You can't optimize your way to being a good person

#74

If you spend all your time worrying about how to be a good person, chances are you're not being a good person. Just go do nice things. Volunteer somewhere. Be of service. And stop worrying so much

In “Meditations”, his personal journal, Marcus Aurelius wrote “Stop wasting time thinking what it means to be a good man. Be one.”

That sounds like “step 2: draw the rest of the owl”.

Re: You can't optimize your way to being a good person

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those with a lot of introspection can do this, and it can be a benefit to yourself and others when used correctly. In my opinion, you were dumb for doing that, but I can't say I haven't done something similar. Given my experience, I wouldn't do this again. My experience involved a crazed homeowner in their 40s shooting at me standing on the public sidewalk for taking pictures of the neighborhood for a realtor, this w…

I would press charges, too. Shooting is a lot different from stealing. I might not let people off the hook, because I think it might change them , but it might change someone else who saw it happen, or, maybe, a family member that depends on them. This goes doubly true, these days, with everything being live-streamed. I get a little nauseous, though, at some of the staged crap, out there.

It is different from stealing, but crimes can escalate quickly and without warning.

What people don't realize is when these type of things happen, if you haven't experienced it before, its surreal, and it can take a moment to realize, recognize and react. Even after the fact, with close calls there's a lot of processing and grappling with your own mortality.

All you really see in the moment is a white, old rundown wood fence that suddenly becomes a cloud of flying splinters and wood chips. It is very different from how its portrayed in the media.

I'm now a big believer that proper firearm safety and handling training should be mandatory for everyone by 18. You recognize the sounds, you see the effect, you can react much quicker with the experience imparted by training than without.

I totally agree about the staged stuff. Anything like that muddies the reality.

Re: You can't optimize your way to being a good person

#77
post #12

I'm a moral incompletist. That is, no consistent system of axioms whose theorems can be listed by an effective procedure is capable of proving all truths about moral actions. Either moral systems are complete, or they are consistent. Consistency and completeness are requirements for optimization, so the idea of moral optimization is dead on arrival for me. It's simply not possible, and like the author one will drive…

That's a good way to phrase it, and something I agree with. I'd heard the phrase "epistemological modesty" a while back, and it goes nicely with this - I think a great deal of harm is done in this world by people looking at other people suffering and either convincing themselves or being convinced that there's a greater systemic reason why those people need to suffer. Epistemological modesty suggests whatever grand d…

> I think a great deal of harm is done in this world by people looking at other people suffering and either convincing themselves or being convinced that there's a greater systemic reason why those people need to suffer.

Is that the "just world hypothesis" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_fallacy ?

Re: You can't optimize your way to being a good person

#78
I have a number of criticisms of the article and wish that the author of the article had a bit more philosophical training.

While the author doesn't explicate it, the author is operating within a particular moral framework that has certain conclusions on what actions are moral in certain situations, and in this framework, moral actions can bring the agent suffering. The article focuses on one category of moral action. The author observes that it is possible for a person who continually internally contemplates and "tries" to externally act according to that moral calculus to do so in a way that brings them to a psychological suffering. (My description is more general; the author uses 'optimization' to describe their) Hereafter, we shall to 'continual internal contemplation and "trying" to externally act according to that moral calculus to do so in a way that brings one psychological suffering.' by Practice.

They want to argue that this Practice is not itself morally good (the first paragraph) I find the author's argument incomplete. They seem to implicitly make the additional reasoning steps: because the Practicioner may themself suffer greatly, this Practice is not moral. This step needs support. After all, if I fracture a leg to save a healthy baby from a car accident, that's probably a moral act even though it brings me suffering.

I shall provide an argument for this step that works in most cases (and in exactly the cases that I think it should work for). Observe that most parents recognize that it is probably good to stay healthy, because a healthy parent has the capacity to contribute more to their children's happiness. But a parent would still fracture a leg to save their child from a car accident. Here, the moral calculus is more visible because we are substituted in the more visible physical health rather than psychological safety, and the more proximate children for the remote person. Similarly, a Practicioner should desist to the extent that they can sustain their psychological health that they have the capacity to contribute more to good. And there are cases where that psychological health ought to be sacrificed, because the external situation is sufficiently critical.

I will also talk about the psychology in the analogy that I have given. There are frequently times where parents don't see that their health is important to the well-being of their children, and allow themselves to abuse their health for unimportant reasons/causes. Analogically, a Practicioner like the author and their peers pursuing 'optimization' likely allowed their psychological well-being to suffer for unimportant reasons/causes.

Another point: a parent who has made a visible sacrifice for their child(ren) often feels good about it. But this psychological response to a sacrifice is conditional on the situation being simple enough to be "emotionally recognizable". As an analogy, suppose that through a charity you have donated money to fund a life-saving operation of a distant child, and despite paper and institutional guarantees, you do not so much even see a photo of the person whose life you have saved. That emotionally hits very different as spending the same amount for a relative that you meet often, and also for one's own child; after all, direct sense-perception provides very good evidence. As a methodological point, I think it helps to explore cognitively building the infrastructure so that you feel the psychologically appropriate reward to sacrifices for sufficiently certain good, but remote, causes.

Finally, note that there are moral frameworks for which this argument is completely irrelevant. For example, Aristippus argues that one should practice instant gratification, in which case such deliberation on methods seems irrelevant.

Re: You can't optimize your way to being a good person

#79
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In “Meditations”, his personal journal, Marcus Aurelius wrote “Stop wasting time thinking what it means to be a good man. Be one.”

That sounds like “step 2: draw the rest of the owl”.

Sometimes, it's not that hard to draw the rest of the owl.
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