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BlackGirlsCode Raises $21,000 To Fund Summer Of Code Program

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Re: BlackGirlsCode Raises $21,000 To Fund Summer Of Code Program

#51

Post by markessien »

JPKab wrote: post #13

I realize that the realities of the limited resources available for charities and non-profits is what leads to the ethnic and gender based targeting, but this just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Is it a good cause? Yes. Teaching any disadvantaged group a useful skill is a great thing, but solving a problem of exclusion with further exclusion is, in principal, bad. I grew up in a poor, mostly black, rural county in V…

What's the difference between "Girls Code" and "Black Girls Code". They both exclude a significant chunk of the population, but one is slightly more targeted than the other. They both exclude based on biology and facts on ground. It's the exact same thing.

One could also say "Dallas Girls Code", a program for girls in the dallas area. It's perfectly okay.

Re: BlackGirlsCode Raises $21,000 To Fund Summer Of Code Program

#52

Post by rmc »

IanDrake wrote: post #12
dinkumthinkum wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not? This is one of the hardest hit economic demographics in the country. I don't think targeting it to be specifically for them is bad; in fact I think it is probably best. This demographics tends to get lost in the "need more women in tech" crowd.

>Why not? I agree - IF we can also agree that groups for "White Women", "Bald Hispanic Men Under 40", etc... are also allowed. Society needs to come to a consensus on this. Either there is a useful purpose to segmenting private groups by age, gender, race, income, etc... or there isn't. If there is a valid purpose, then we should all agree that all possible combination of these factors are equally valid. The end resu…

Not all defintions of racism mean "Any segmentation based on skin colour". Some people define racism as a privileged powerful racial group discriminating and holding back a disadvantaged racial group.

So yes, a programme that targets helping black people in tech is not racist, but helping white people in tech is racist.

Re: BlackGirlsCode Raises $21,000 To Fund Summer Of Code Program

#53

Post by vijayr »

_pius wrote: post #14
JPKab wrote: post #13

I realize that the realities of the limited resources available for charities and non-profits is what leads to the ethnic and gender based targeting, but this just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Is it a good cause? Yes. Teaching any disadvantaged group a useful skill is a great thing, but solving a problem of exclusion with further exclusion is, in principal, bad. I grew up in a poor, mostly black, rural county in V…

I read your rant a few times and I've yet to see your point. Charities should be based on need and helping the greater good, not on playing favorites. This isn't a charity. A black woman started this program to address a legitimate need that she saw. Others who agreed with her gave her money to do it. Where is the bad in this? How is this anything but a net positive for the world?

I understand where the GP is coming from.

Teaching kids to code is an absolutely nice thing to do. But segregating based on color or gender or caste is never a good idea. What if a poor white or Asian or Hispanic kid wants to join this class? They'll be turned away?

To give an example: India is a deeply divided society, based on caste/religion etc. In many educational institutions, huge percentage of seats are reserved for the so called "lower" castes. So a kid, who gets very low grades, can get into a good institution, just because he is from a lower caste, even if that kid's family is rich. On the other hand, a poor kid from a so called "higher" caste, can't get in, even after getting high grades, as there are only so many seats and competition is tough. This has wrecked havoc in the Indian society, as absolutely dumb kids get into good colleges, while bright kids are left out.

Charities should never ever be based on color, gender, caste etc. Charity should be based on need and need only. Any kid who wants to learn to code, should be welcome, irrespective of their color. It does however, make sense to say no based on affordability - meaning, saying no to a rich kid makes sense, as he/she will find another teacher anyway, because he/she can afford it.

Again, she is doing a great noble work, no question about it. It would be even more awesome, if she just taught all kids, instead of just black kids.

Re: BlackGirlsCode Raises $21,000 To Fund Summer Of Code Program

#54

Post by cschmidt »

Wow, such a lot of negative comments. HN really sounds mean sometimes. Sure, it is a charity program targeting a specific group of people. But that's true of essentially all charities. The Boy Scouts only help boys, PyLadies only teaches women to program in Python, the The Global Fund to Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria doesn't help people with cancer. The organizers are adding to the social good and helping a deserving group of girls. Good for them.

Re: BlackGirlsCode Raises $21,000 To Fund Summer Of Code Program

#55

Post by rmc »

Produce wrote: post #33
slurgfest wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If some black girls want to code, what possible reason do you have to object? Let them. Leave them alone, if you aren't supportive. That's all you need to do. The group isn't preventing white people from coding. If you want white people to code, you can make your own group. And it will fly really well anywhere in the South and many places in the West and you won't have to say anything about how it's only for white pe…

So if I started a charity called WhiteMenCode, do you think that it would be fair to all of the other races and genders? Would it be fair that one segment of the impoverished get special treatment? Surely it would be better to organise something like PoorPeopleCode, since that is the segment of society which, in fact, needs help - poor people. Who gives a crap about race or gender? It's bigger than that.

So if I started a charity called WhiteMenCode, do you think that it would be fair to all of the other races and genders?

No, of course that's not fair. White men need very little help coding and getting involved in tech. However people who do need it, should get it.

Re: BlackGirlsCode Raises $21,000 To Fund Summer Of Code Program

#56

Post by _delirium »

JPKab wrote: post #22
peterwwillis wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're saying that charities should do a breakdown of all the demographics in a given area, and spend exactly the same resources on getting them all help? I wasn't aware that charities and non-profits were supposed to be so generalized. I thought targeting specific issues was part of the point, to have a greater chance at solving at least one problem. The net effect of this organization's efforts will be to elevat…

There should be zero targeting of ethnicity. Excluding people based on ethnicity is wrong, no matter what the ethnic group is. And what makes you so sure that black men would relate to black women better than they would men of other ethnic backgrounds? Which is the bigger divider, gender or ethnicity? The point I am making isn't that this isn't a good thing, because as I said in my original post, helping any disadvan…

> There should be zero targeting of ethnicity.

So I shouldn't be allowed to volunteer with the American Hellenic Progressive Association, a group dedicated towards looking at problems and interests specific to Greek-Americans? Why not? Not every group can target every community's problems, so it sometimes makes sense to target subgroups imo.

Re: BlackGirlsCode Raises $21,000 To Fund Summer Of Code Program

#57

Post by rmc »

This is great, and good for them.

However as often happens, people are now complaining that they shouldn't have a programme just for black girls since it's racist/sexist. It's not. People/groups who need help and are disadvantaged, should be helped. If 2 babies are born, and one is very healthy and one is very sick, we should give the sick one more medical attention than the healthy one. We should not give everyone the same amount of help, we should try to ensure that everyone has the same chance. That means giving one group more help than another. 'Everyone having the same chance' is what happens when we get rid of racism/sexism (we're not there yet).

Re: BlackGirlsCode Raises $21,000 To Fund Summer Of Code Program

#58

Post by kenjackson »

There's a simple test I use for these cases... it's called the "Least Restrictive Subset Test", or LRST for short. You apply it to see if targeting a specific group is worthwhile.

It works by asking two simple questions:

1) If I marketed to a less restrictive subset, would I capture a smaller percentage of my target audience (in proportion to the population)? For example, if I said, "GirlsCode" -- would I still get ~10% black females attending? I suspect you'd get the expected percentage of white females attending, so if white girls were my target audience, I needn't restrict the audience any further. But for black females I would.

2) If I market to this restricted subset will I likely increase the total number of my target audience in attendance. For example, if I said, "WhiteMenCode" do I expect more white men to attend than if I said "MenCode"? I suspect probably not (at least not people serious about coding, versus just trying to prove a point about race). But BlackGirlsCode probably will increase the total number of black females who are serious about learning to code.

I think BlackGirlsCode passes the LRST.

Re: BlackGirlsCode Raises $21,000 To Fund Summer Of Code Program

#59

Post by sophacles »

JPKab wrote: post #13

I realize that the realities of the limited resources available for charities and non-profits is what leads to the ethnic and gender based targeting, but this just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Is it a good cause? Yes. Teaching any disadvantaged group a useful skill is a great thing, but solving a problem of exclusion with further exclusion is, in principal, bad. I grew up in a poor, mostly black, rural county in V…

Yeah, you know what else sucks - there is funding for support groups of cancer survivors. What a pile of crap that they don't fund me to go in and learn about surviving cancer. I think cancer sucks too, and its just so unfair that they are exclusionary because of some silly thing like "had cancer". What makes them special? I mean shit, I grew up in a household where my grandma DIED of cancer. I don't deserve support and sympathy just because I didn't have it? What a pile of crap. I know its uncool to have never had cancer these days, but lets just be honest: it would be much more useful to the world to give everyone a "cancer sucks" dollar than to provide some people with enough dollars to specialize on one part of the problem. Then we could all be equal and awesome. I understand, that cancer survivors feel alone and lost to the world, but is the right way to fight that really by putting them in a group of other "people who understand"? This favoritism is bullshit.

(For those who don't get sarcasm, or if I somehow stumbled on a high poe factor, the preceding rant was sarcasm)

Re: BlackGirlsCode Raises $21,000 To Fund Summer Of Code Program

#60

Post by unit_testing »

rmc wrote: post #52
IanDrake wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why not? I agree - IF we can also agree that groups for "White Women", "Bald Hispanic Men Under 40", etc... are also allowed. Society needs to come to a consensus on this. Either there is a useful purpose to segmenting private groups by age, gender, race, income, etc... or there isn't. If there is a valid purpose, then we should all agree that all possible combination of these factors are equally valid. The end resu…

Not all defintions of racism mean "Any segmentation based on skin colour". Some people define racism as a privileged powerful racial group discriminating and holding back a disadvantaged racial group. So yes, a programme that targets helping black people in tech is not racist, but helping white people in tech is racist.

Are poor, uneducated whites less worthy of help than wealthy, affluent blacks?

If you believe so, you're a bigot.

Also, are poor, uneducated whites less worthy of help than poor, uneducated blacks?

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