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Roman Empire's use of lead lowered IQ levels across Europe, study finds

theguardian.com

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Re: Roman Empire's use of lead lowered IQ levels across Europe, study finds

#111

Post by f1shy »

PeterHolzwarth wrote: post #15

I have no idea if this is true (and honestly can only barely remember the reference, which I read maybe a decade or two ago), but I believe I saw a comment that the interior of lead pipes eventually develop a "calcified" (don't know what else to call it) lining of the lead reacting to water, such that lead stops leeching into the water that passes through the pipes. I believe this came up when reading something about…

There must be something, as I grew in a house with lead pipes, and while I will not disclose my IQ or that of my siblings, they are high. Or maybe we were lucky? Of course only anecdotical data.

Re: Roman Empire's use of lead lowered IQ levels across Europe, study finds

#112

Post by o999 »

> By some estimates, the Roman empire amounted to more than 80 million people at its peak, meaning that about a quarter of the world’s population could have been exposed to the lead pollution generated by mining and smelting. The effects of lead poisoning can be so severe that scholars have debated whether it contributed to the fall of the empire.

I wonder what will happen to current empires from micro- and nano-plastics, PFAS, airpolution, as well as harmful yet popular habits like doomscrolling and games addictions.

Re: Roman Empire's use of lead lowered IQ levels across Europe, study finds

#113

Post by elcritch »

HeatrayEnjoyer wrote: post #76
nahnahno wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2.5-3 micrograms per deciliter is nothing. Wouldn’t even come up as elevated by current childhood screening guidelines. I very much doubt 2-3 IQ point difference.

I wouldn't call it nothing. Current regulation requires water supply at the tap to measure 2-3 µg/L is significant.

Worse the parent says 2-3 μg/dL or 20-30 μg/L right?

Re: Roman Empire's use of lead lowered IQ levels across Europe, study finds

#114

Post by starspangled »

siva7 wrote: post #107
whatsupdog wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it matters. Faster car can run more miles in a day. More IQ can do more work.

Unfortunately for that we have computers so we don't need high IQ to do more work like calculations but higher quality work (which also depends on what kind of work you're doing) and that is oftentimes not primarily related to high IQ (think of creative work)

Is that really true? That IQ is often not related to capacity to do valuable intellectual work in the modern world?

Re: Roman Empire's use of lead lowered IQ levels across Europe, study finds

#115

Post by elcritch »

Anotheroneagain wrote: post #91
somenameforme wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right about how IQ is measured with 100 being the average and, generally, 15 points being a standard deviation. But numerous tests also record raw scores and these can be compared between generations. Scandiland and other places with compulsory conscription + IQ testing are the goldmine here. This is what led to the observation of the 'Flynn Effect' - the observation that IQ between generations was increasing,…

The explanation is that IQ measures the cerebellum, and the declining nutrition and increasing brain damage forces people to rely more on the cerebellum, the statistical engine, instead of abstract thinking.

Hmmm, I could imagine microplastics, PFAS, artificial dies, excessive and unhealthy amounts of sugar would all have a deleterious effect on IQ. Perhaps even specifically pre frontal cortex, etc.

Though that goes against Europe hitting the decline earlier than the US which leads in sugars and unhealthy foods.

Re: Roman Empire's use of lead lowered IQ levels across Europe, study finds

#116

Post by panick21_ »

bell-cot wrote: post #96
vasco wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could also happen that all the advances in hygiene and infrastructure and logistics during the Roman empire had a more positive impact on IQ than the negative effect of lead. Not starving while growing up does wonders for the brain.

Plenty of people starved...just not (in their better centuries) the better-off Romans. For (presumed) IQ benefits, I'd focus more on the hygiene, and the relatively disease-free drinking water which all those lead pipes & lead-lined aqueducts provided. (Plus the sewers.) There were lots of nasty diseases you could catch by drinking the water in ancient cities. And at scale, "lead lowered IQ" isn't much different to "…

That a very reductive view. Data shows that during the Roman empire, people moved on mass from hill forts into the flatlands (presumably giving better acess to agroculture, trade and water). We also see far more material culture, and not just for rich people. Huge amount of just common consumer goods, and this even streches far beyond the borders of the empire itself. Population also increased during this time.

Re: Roman Empire's use of lead lowered IQ levels across Europe, study finds

#117

Post by panick21_ »

Anotheroneagain wrote: post #94

Rome fell after they stopped using lead. There is no evidence whatsoever that lead was widely known to be toxic, until a group of conspirationists took over the academia. In fact such a belief couldn't have been widespread. The historical quotes appear to be fabricated. In fact it's essential. Roman sewers and sanitation quickly flushed it down the drain, by 235 it was in chaos, long distance trade was no longer poss…

Wow, somebody is still repeating 60 historical stuff.

Re: Roman Empire's use of lead lowered IQ levels across Europe, study finds

#118

Post by matwood »

WorkerBee28474 wrote: post #25
PeterHolzwarth wrote: post #15

I have no idea if this is true (and honestly can only barely remember the reference, which I read maybe a decade or two ago), but I believe I saw a comment that the interior of lead pipes eventually develop a "calcified" (don't know what else to call it) lining of the lead reacting to water, such that lead stops leeching into the water that passes through the pipes. I believe this came up when reading something about…

I haven't read it, but the book History of Toxicology and Environmental Health [0] would say that pipes were not a problem. Preparing food and wine in lead containers could have been a problem, but it wasn't until centuries after the Roman Empire "fell" that doctors even described the symptoms of lead poisoning. And to throw in another quote from a scholarly source, "Water from the river Anio, which fed two of Rome's…

> would say that pipes were not a problem.

You obviously would prefer non-lead pipes, but running the water for a period before using flushes out any lead if the pipes are in the house. Like you say in your comment, it's when water sits in a container like a wine vat where leeching has time to accumulate.

Re: Roman Empire's use of lead lowered IQ levels across Europe, study finds

#119

Post by biggoodwolf »

vasco wrote: post #81
peeters wrote: post #46

> Roman Empire’s use of lead lowered IQ levels across Europe, study finds I'm not a fan of this phrasing. None of the findings had anything to do with measuring IQ levels in ancient Europe. They were about measuring historical levels of lead, which they then just plugged into modern models to presume some levels of cognitive effects. A study that was actually able to measure cognitive disparities and correlate them w…

Could also happen that all the advances in hygiene and infrastructure and logistics during the Roman empire had a more positive impact on IQ than the negative effect of lead. Not starving while growing up does wonders for the brain.

What did the Romans ever do for us?
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