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My little sister's use of ChatGPT for homework is heartbreaking

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Re: My little sister's use of ChatGPT for homework is heartbreaking

#171
post #4

Waiting for those people who post the "how do you use LLMS for X" questions on HN to come here and explain how this is a good thing.

Would you be upset if in the 70s you found out your sister was using a calculator to check her math homework?

ah yes, "something in the past happened so then this thing in the present is ok" argument

now mention Socrates and his dislike of writing, or maybe how people were worried about television, video games...

meanwhile, a 12 years old somewhere is mechanically copying and pasting her math homework while understanding and learning absolutely nothing

no, wait, it's not just one 12 years old, it's probably all of them

Re: My little sister's use of ChatGPT for homework is heartbreaking

#172
When I was in elementary school, my teachers told me it was very important to memorize multiplication tables because I wouldn't always have a calculator in my pocket. We know how that turned out.

I asked an LLM the first example question (convert 3 minutes to seconds), and it provided not just the answer, but that there are 60 seconds per minutes, so that's 3 * 60 = 180. I don't think an 11 year old is harmed by that sort of assistance.

Re: My little sister's use of ChatGPT for homework is heartbreaking

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My daughter is only 1 and a half years old now, but my concern is more that she'll be implicitly competing with classmates that are using tools like this, whether we allow her to use them or not.

It's not a competition. Teach her to use her brain, and hope school will end up being a net positive. You can't fix other parents and their children. It starts now for you by the way. Keep her away from screens for now, and be a good role model when handling devices (and the apps on them). You have ten years to show them what computers can do for you, but also what being the master of your own cognitive skills will g…

> It's not a competition.

As a parent whose child has been in two school systems, respectfully: yes, it is. And it begins earlier than you think.

Re: My little sister's use of ChatGPT for homework is heartbreaking

#174
People have felt the same way about waning handwriting skills and reliance on calculators.

The truth is the way humans process information has been radically altered by LLMs and we're in the absolute infancy of understanding what that means. It is going to be far more disruptive than the keyboard or calculator. As we discover the implications, we are repeatedly going to find ourselves disturbed and disoriented. There are skeptics who think it's all hype and that current approaches are a dead end. Even if that were true, I'm 100% convinced that even if AI didn't meaningfully improve on today's capabilities, it will still be incredibly disruptive.

Buckle up.

There will be 2 categories of winners of the AI revolution: the quick and the deep.

This poster's little sister is "the quick". She is using AI intuitively and aggressively. Whether it's right or wrong isn't important, because if the payoffs of it being right are more than the costs of it being wrong, she will be vastly more productive than people who are not using AI. A lot of the thinking school has traditionally trained us to do is officially commoditized.

"The deep" are people with strong conceptual understanding of the problems to which they are applying AI and/or strong understanding of the AI itself. They will use AI to create things that didn't exist before. They will take seriously the risk management (although, they will still not be able to successfully predict all unintended consequences).

People will benefit in the new world proportional to their ability to create or extract value.

Re: My little sister's use of ChatGPT for homework is heartbreaking

#175
post #5

The people who thought up the Chinese Room argument were almost right - they just didn't realize it would be the human who didn't understand anything.

The Chinese Room was a lame thought experiment. It requires a book so wondrous that any question looked up has an answer convincingly human (it's just that both the question and reply are in a language the person shuffling pages doesn't understand). The Book can be seen by a modern audience as equivalent to the distillation of all that LLM training.

It's odd to me to present an argument on human vs. machine intelligence and completely skip over what human intelligence is — exactly what it is about human intelligence that is so distant from this "trained" (educated?) book.

(I think I am also speaking for Karl Pilkington when I say that I have no way to know that the little man in my head that is busy flipping through the Calhoun Book has a clue as to what I am on about either.)

Re: My little sister's use of ChatGPT for homework is heartbreaking

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With a lot of caveats. You are in competition with these peers for grades, college admissions, and job applications. In many cases, the benefits of actually accruing knowledge and the consequences of failure to do so is delayed decades into the future.

Homework weights on grades is going to go down. Parents income and zip codes impact educational attainment more than class rank outside of the oligarchy anyways. Opportunity and social mobility is far more restricted in the US than most people realize. This is in part why the college debt is problematic, valuing a piece of paper over the education itself is already a bubble that has popped.

The US is one of, if not the most, socially mobile countries in the west. Countries like the Nordics have much more equality of outcome, but the chances someone leaves the economic quintile they are born into is lower.

Re: My little sister's use of ChatGPT for homework is heartbreaking

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that exactly the Chinese room argument though? The human/computer in the room doesn't need to understand Chinese or English to translate?

The Chinese room metaphor is an argument about AI, or computation more generally, attempting to distinguish the difference between performance metrics and "understanding". There is the role of the human within the metaphor, and the argument/position of the metaphor as a whole. I don't think it makes much sense to talk about the "point/argument/position of a single component of the metaphor. At least, that wasn't how…

The Chinese Room metaphor is also about consciousness, about thought in general.

Re: My little sister's use of ChatGPT for homework is heartbreaking

#178

He's overreacting. Its a matter of perspective. From the perspective of most of us here, asking ChatGPT to convert 3 minutes to seconds sounds trivial. We can do this conversion in our heads effortlessly in a fraction of a second. Because we've been doing it our entire lives on a daily basis. But for an 11-year-old kid, it can be a challenge. Why bother straining your brain if you can just ask ChatGPT... We are wired…

I'm old enough to remember when calculators in schools were really controversial.

Some time, between then, and now, they started mandating graphing calculators.

I know that many universities now assume that everyone uses word processors, and have a zero-tolerance stance on typos.

Someone else posted an article, where the person was complaining about Apple (always a crowd-pleaser), and quoted Steve Jobs, talking about how bicycles acted as "force multipliers" for human efficiency, and compared the personal computer to that.

LLMs are here. Can't put that genie back in the bottle (sorry Jafar). They are now a part of the landscape, and we're still in the old "big iron" phase. They will become much better, pretty quickly.

Kids will need to work with them.

I find things like this to be great, because they free me up to learn more stuff. They raise the baseline.

People think that primitive folks were "dumber" than we are now. This was almost certainly not the case. They just didn't have the infrastructure that we have (dadburn kids, with their fancy "wheels," and "fire." Humpfh), and our kids will have a far more powerful infrastructure than we do.

I'm fairly hopeful. If we can keep from blowing ourselves up, I think we'll be fine.

Re: My little sister's use of ChatGPT for homework is heartbreaking

#179

I know that having parents who cared about my education (and were in a position to actively participate in it) was a privilege and not a given, but where are the parents in this situation? Do we just accept that an 11 year-old watches squid game, has unrestricted access to chatgpt and does all their school work without any oversight at all? Clearly this kid is not receiving the guidance it needs. Or any guidance real…

What kind of guidance does 11 year old need for homework? Me and my siblings were doing all of it independently pretty much from the start, parents were only involved if there was some tough nut that we needed help with.

[deleted]

Re: My little sister's use of ChatGPT for homework is heartbreaking

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand this sentiment, even though it is common among Americans. Why is education seen as a competition between students, even in the younger grades? I've even heard stories of parents of young children fighting with each other over their children's grades.

> I don't understand this sentiment, even though it is common among Americans. Why is education seen as a competition between students, even in the younger grades? Oh wow, I thought Americans were super lax when it came to this, especially compared to more competitive educational systems like China. My kid is in second grade and hasn't gotten a real grade yet.

Oh wow, I thought Americans were super lax when it came to this

It's hard to generalize here, as Americans are a heterogeneous bunch. Demographic subsets exist where education is seen as a vigorous competitive sport, where the goal is to achieve admission to the "right" college. The parents are as involved as the kids, usually for better but sometimes for worse.

At the same time, among other groups of Americans, the goal is simply for kids to reach adulthood without too much interaction with the police. You can't draw sweeping conclusions that will cover the entire spectrum.

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