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My little sister's use of ChatGPT for homework is heartbreaking

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Re: My little sister's use of ChatGPT for homework is heartbreaking

#71

Post by s1artibartfast »

nyrikki wrote: post #51
moduspwnens14 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My daughter is only 1 and a half years old now, but my concern is more that she'll be implicitly competing with classmates that are using tools like this, whether we allow her to use them or not.

Reminder, you win by learning the material, not by completing the homework.

With a lot of caveats. You are in competition with these peers for grades, college admissions, and job applications. In many cases, the benefits of actually accruing knowledge and the consequences of failure to do so is delayed decades into the future.

Re: My little sister's use of ChatGPT for homework is heartbreaking

#72

Post by florbo »

wvenable wrote: post #53
moduspwnens14 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My daughter is only 1 and a half years old now, but my concern is more that she'll be implicitly competing with classmates that are using tools like this, whether we allow her to use them or not.

I'm not sure how that would play out but I think there is some validness in that concern. It's the same with smartphones; you deny your kid one because you want them to socialize in person but if they're the only kid without a smartphone then they'll be socially isolated. Everything has to be managed in moderation. As for ChatGPT, I use it all the time for learning. And I've used it to help my kid study. But I wouldn…

It's almost as if we need to be actively parenting and engaged with our children! Who'd've thought!

Sarcasm aside, making informed decisions on how to do those things can be a challenge.

Re: My little sister's use of ChatGPT for homework is heartbreaking

#73

Post by fn-mote »

burkaman wrote: post #9
wumeow wrote: post #2

Invert the class format: Homework should be done in class on pencil/paper or locked down Chromebooks, and lectures can be watched on video at home.

This was already a good idea even before LLMs, and it has been tried a bit in the US ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flipped_classroom ). Maybe it just happens to fit my personal learning style, but I think it would encourage collaboration, help teachers more accurately assess how students are doing, help students who don't have a good home environment to get work done, it's easier to self-motivate yourself to watch…

I know this method works for some people, but it isn't consistent with the way I have observed that people learn.

I used to watch Veritasium [1] videos (way back) that vividly illustrated that even when told the correct information, people would not change their world view but instead give answers consistent with their pre-teaching naive views.

Learning is complex. If all that a "teacher" is doing is lecturing, then a video might be a reasonable replacement.

Even when the content is straightforward, my observation is that engagement with videos are awful. Heck, engagement in a lecture is awful, but at least the (human) teacher in the room can reasonably be expected to do things to engage the audience and probe their understanding. Some of that might be possible in a video format, for 5x the effort; follow up with examples if you know good ones. I know in the MIT OCW I have seen recordings of discussion sections (very effective), and that should be the bottom of the barrel as far as engagement when "honestly trying to engage learners".

You would be better off just trying to do the work, then looking up the information needed. That kind of works, and I bet that's what happens in the flipped classroom model. (Maybe 20% of the class watched the video? Stats welcome.)

I'm really just trying to point out that learning is complex. There's supposed to be a national What Works Clearinghouse [2], but I had a hard time finding useful information there.

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/@veritasium [2]: https://ies.ed.gov/ncee/wwc/

Re: My little sister's use of ChatGPT for homework is heartbreaking

#74

Post by MonkeyClub »

moduspwnens14 wrote: post #15
clejack wrote: post #12

There's some grim humor in the fact that the poster reflects on his sister's use of chatgpt, and just ends on that point. I have to wonder if he decided to talk to her or his parents about the situation. I didn't see anything in the post to suggest it, just a "this next generation is cooked." Who cooked them is the question? Children won't raise themselves generally.

My daughter is only 1 and a half years old now, but my concern is more that she'll be implicitly competing with classmates that are using tools like this, whether we allow her to use them or not.

This will be "better in the long run" for her, in one way.

I see such competition as hare vs tortoise races, where the students who get an early unfair advantage end up cheating themselves out of an education, in the sense that all they come to know is how to prompt an LLM, rather than break down and solve hard problems.

It's still heartbreaking to consider both the early discrimination she will likely encounter, and the later failures that will anticipate her classmates, and the society that they will come to inhabit as adults.

Re: My little sister's use of ChatGPT for homework is heartbreaking

#75

Post by alexyz12 »

this kind of thing feeds perfectly into our fears. However, we have to place trust in individuals and the choices they make - that's the only thing that matters at the end of the day.

Kids know that they should be learning things. They know that chatgpt can get in the way of that. Will they choose to do it the right way eventually aside from a few bumps in the road? I think so.

Re: My little sister's use of ChatGPT for homework is heartbreaking

#76

Post by zamadatix »

nottorp wrote: post #4

Waiting for those people who post the "how do you use LLMS for X" questions on HN to come here and explain how this is a good thing.

I see it more like calculators. Using a calculator isn't inherently good or bad in itself. If you're using a calculator to fake learning the intuitions and mechanics of division on your math homework then that's bad - regardless of how many other good use cases for calculators can be talked about in a separate context.

Re: My little sister's use of ChatGPT for homework is heartbreaking

#77

Post by moduspwnens14 »

segasaturn wrote: post #60
moduspwnens14 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My daughter is only 1 and a half years old now, but my concern is more that she'll be implicitly competing with classmates that are using tools like this, whether we allow her to use them or not.

I don't understand this sentiment, even though it is common among Americans. Why is education seen as a competition between students, even in the younger grades? I've even heard stories of parents of young children fighting with each other over their children's grades.

That seems to be a common theme in the responses to me here.

The teachers set the course material and grading standards at least partially on how well the students are performing. Maybe not for a given class or year, but certainly over time. Scholarships are competitive. Slots in higher level courses are competitive, and often (at least partially) based on grades.

Can you imagine that the coursework and education overall might, over time, look quite different if half or more of students are regularly using LLMs, without explicitly disclosing it?

Re: My little sister's use of ChatGPT for homework is heartbreaking

#78

Post by theamk »

delichon wrote: post #43

I find my self using LLMs for very simple things, to jog my memory instead of actually exercising it. Yesterday I asked Claude how to format a numeric string in Ruby. I could have figured it out in the REPL in a minute but instead got the answer from AI in 15 seconds. This is the same kind of laziness as using it to multiply 60 * 3. If I take the slightly slower road of figuring out the string formatting next time I…

When you go to gym class, you are expected to perform without aids - you cannot ride a e-bike around the track when teacher tells you to run.

Same goes with the math/english/science class - if teacher tells you to do the homework yourself, you should do it yourself, not to ask friend/parent/ChatGPT to do it for you.

Outside of class context, people are free to do whatever - ride bikes, cars, ask ChatGPT for questions, ask your friend to write birthday cards for you, copy most of the presentation you gave at work from vendor's whitepaper, etc.. No one will complain.

The distinction seems pretty clear to me, I am not sure why people are having problems with it.

Re: My little sister's use of ChatGPT for homework is heartbreaking

#79

Post by Ekaros »

throw0101d wrote: post #42

Are in-class tests still a thing? If you use these tools to get the homework done, but there's little retention of knowledge or skill, how are you going to pass a test where the resource is not available to you? Homework is ostensibly about practicing certain skills (math) or learning/memorizing facts.

Do we still ask children to pass tests? I have been wondering about this. Can you still be held back? Can you still be given low grades if parents are aggressive?
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