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Be a property owner and not a renter on the internet

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Re: Be a property owner and not a renter on the internet

#251

Post by Kim_Bruning »

omnimus wrote: post #247
Kim_Bruning wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Consider how code infringement is not about code itself but about what it does. If you saw somewhat original implementation of something and then you rewrite it in different language by yourself there is high chance its still copyright infringement. Actually if you rewrite it in a different language, you're well on your way to making it an independent expression; (though beware Structure, Sequence and Organization,…

I dont believe rewrite in different language is specific expression. We will see because we are well on our way of LLMs being able to translate whole codebases to different stack without a hitch. If thats OK than any of the copyleft, open-core or leaked codebases are up for grabs.

A hand rewrite (or intelligent rewrite in general) will tend to become unique pretty quickly, especially when you start leaning into language features of the target language for improved efficiency. Your Structure and Organization will be different.

If you order an LLM (or a human) to do a straight 1:1 translation, you'll sort of pass one test (it's a completely different language after all!), but fail to show much difference wrt structure, sequence or organization. I'm also not entirely sure how good of an idea it is technically. If you start iterating on it you can probably get much better results anyway. But then you're doing real creative work!

Re: Be a property owner and not a renter on the internet

#252

Post by [deleted] »

Kim_Bruning wrote: post #241
omnimus wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This whole AI learns like a human is trajectory of thought pushed by AI companies. They at same time try to humanize AI (it learns like a human would) and dehumanize humans (humans are stochastic parrots anyway). It's if anything a distraction if not straight up anti-human. But you are right that copyright is complex and in the end decided by human (often in court). Consider how code infringement is not about code it…

> Consider how code infringement is not about code itself but about what it does. If you saw somewhat original implementation of something and then you rewrite it in different language by yourself there is high chance its still copyright infringement. Actually if you rewrite it in a different language, you're well on your way to making it an independent expression; (though beware Structure, Sequence and Organization,…

[deleted]

Re: Be a property owner and not a renter on the internet

#253

Post by Kim_Bruning »

omnimus wrote: post #248
Kim_Bruning wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Consider how code infringement is not about code itself but about what it does. If you saw somewhat original implementation of something and then you rewrite it in different language by yourself there is high chance its still copyright infringement. Actually if you rewrite it in a different language, you're well on your way to making it an independent expression; (though beware Structure, Sequence and Organization,…

The fact LLMs are generating any images is purely thanks to database of source images that are copyright protected. Its a form of sophisticated automated photobashing. Photobashing is grayzone but often legal because of the other artist doing the (often original) work. When you prompt for Mijazaki image this image can only exist thanks to his protected work being in database (where he doesnt want to be) otherwise the…

There's no such database, AFAICT.

If you've ever worked with open source models (eg one of the stable diffusion models or models based on them, using tools such as AUTOMATIC1111 or ComfyUI); you can inspect them yourself and simply see. If you haven't done so already, see if you can figure out the installation instructions for one of the tools and try!

Meanwhile ...

Ok, fine, I've heard some crazy compression conspiracy theories, but they're a bit too crazy to be credible.

I've also heard stories about these models being intelligent - a little artist living in your computer. I think that's going a bit too far in another direction.

In reality, I think it's better to install the software and take your time to learn about the way these models are actually built and work.

[ btw: If Miyazaki were to take this to court with the argument you put forward, he wouldn't get very far. "Please remove my images from your systems in whatever form you are holding them". The response for the defense would simply be: "We don't actually have them, and you are quite welcome to inspect all our systems". ]

(Incidentally, I've been here before. I play with synths as a hobby! ;-)

Re: Be a property owner and not a renter on the internet

#254

Post by Kim_Bruning »

omnimus wrote: post #248
Kim_Bruning wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Consider how code infringement is not about code itself but about what it does. If you saw somewhat original implementation of something and then you rewrite it in different language by yourself there is high chance its still copyright infringement. Actually if you rewrite it in a different language, you're well on your way to making it an independent expression; (though beware Structure, Sequence and Organization,…

The fact LLMs are generating any images is purely thanks to database of source images that are copyright protected. Its a form of sophisticated automated photobashing. Photobashing is grayzone but often legal because of the other artist doing the (often original) work. When you prompt for Mijazaki image this image can only exist thanks to his protected work being in database (where he doesnt want to be) otherwise the…

Actually, while I just said "there is no database", maybe you're working from a very different mental model from mine...

What do you mean by "Database" in this context? What information do you think is being stored, (and how?)

Re: Be a property owner and not a renter on the internet

#255

Post by CamperBob2 »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #249
CamperBob2 wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if no attribution etc is your personal policy that’s not everyone else’s. That's up to the courts. As usual, we will all lose if the copyright maximalists win.

To me it looks like individual creators are the ones most likely to lose. I was watching an interview with John Warnock (one of the founders of Adobe) and he was proud of the fact that the US went from having 25,000 graphic designers to 2,500,000 largely thanks to software his company created. I do wonder if we are on the verge of reversing that shift.

The question you should be asking is if we need 2,500,000 graphic designers. Humans have a higher purpose than doing a robot's job.

Re: Be a property owner and not a renter on the internet

#256

Post by omnimus »

Kim_Bruning wrote: post #254
omnimus wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact LLMs are generating any images is purely thanks to database of source images that are copyright protected. Its a form of sophisticated automated photobashing. Photobashing is grayzone but often legal because of the other artist doing the (often original) work. When you prompt for Mijazaki image this image can only exist thanks to his protected work being in database (where he doesnt want to be) otherwise the…

Actually, while I just said "there is no database", maybe you're working from a very different mental model from mine... What do you mean by "Database" in this context? What information do you think is being stored, (and how?)

I understand what the model is and how you get to it. I know the training data is not stored. But as far as i understand - the model is closer to derived intermediary from the training data. Like database index or like you said form of compression.

Thats why i on purpose tend to call trainng data + model the database. Because to non progammers it makes more sense. To me there is intentional slight of hand of hiding the fact that the only reason LLMs can work as they do now is because of the source data. The way its usually marketed it seems like the model is program that generalised principles of drawing from looking and other drawings thats why it can draw like Mijazaki when it wants to. Not that it can draw Mijazaki because it preprocessed every Mijazaki drawing, stemmed patterns out of it and can mash them with other patterns (from the database).

Thats why i intentionally say database to lead this discussions back to what i see is core of these technologies.

Re: Be a property owner and not a renter on the internet

#257

Post by rchaud »

foxglacier wrote: post #239
asdff wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No attribution with ai

But also no direct copying, typically. Would OP really be happy with an AI that reliably rewords everything so that attribution is not required but still reproduces the information?

Human educational systems penalize you for not citing sources (i.e. not showing your work, not crediting referenced works). Why should an AI system be exempt?

Re: Be a property owner and not a renter on the internet

#258

Post by p3rls »

Eh, no be a renter.

I'm a property owner on the internet, built the best website in my niche by far (really look it up and compare) but google rewards ugly dogshit wordpresses created by people with no expertise in my niche.

When you're an owner you have to deal with things like taking another SEO hit for the holidays and have to face the dilemma of whether to fire people now, or when you have no money in two months and no reserves left to maneuver too.

Re: Be a property owner and not a renter on the internet

#259

Post by xp84 »

DrScientist wrote: post #210
chii wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> with the right prompts. that is doing a lot of pull. Just because you could "get the full copies" with the right prompts, doesn't mean the weights and the training is copyright infringement. I could also get a full copy of any works out of the digits of pi. The point i would like to emphasize is that the using data to train the model is not copyright infringement in and of itself. If you use the resulting model to…

>The point i would like to emphasize is that the using data to train the model is not copyright infringement in and of itself. Interesting point - though the law can be strange in some cases - so for example in the UK in court cases where people are effectively being charged for looking at illegal images, the actual crime can be 'making illegal images' - simply because a precedence has been set that because any OS/Br…

That seems to be an artifact of the whole copyright thing predating all forms of computing and memory, but if we don’t ignore that one, we’ve all been illegally copying copyrighted text, images and videos into our RAM every time we use the Internet. So i think the courts now basically acknowledge that that doesnt count as a “copy.”

*Not a lawyer

Re: Be a property owner and not a renter on the internet

#260

Post by chii »

omnimus wrote: post #256
Kim_Bruning wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, while I just said "there is no database", maybe you're working from a very different mental model from mine... What do you mean by "Database" in this context? What information do you think is being stored, (and how?)

I understand what the model is and how you get to it. I know the training data is not stored. But as far as i understand - the model is closer to derived intermediary from the training data. Like database index or like you said form of compression. Thats why i on purpose tend to call trainng data + model the database. Because to non progammers it makes more sense. To me there is intentional slight of hand of hiding t…

What you're describing as database would be what i call information.
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