US newspapers are deleting old crime stories, offering subjects a 'clean slate' • Hacker News Board

Re: US newspapers are deleting old crime stories, offering subjects a 'clean slate'

#161

Post by smsm42 » Sat, Jan 04, 2025, 8:07 PM UTC

jmyeet wrote: post #147

krapp wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read the 13th Amendment to the US Constitution: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." The US penal system is explicitly a continuation of the former slave system. Slavery wasn't outlawed in the US, just made a monopoly franchise of the US governmen…

Not sure who's downvoting this because the comment is objectively correct [1][2][3]. The practice of "convict leasing" is modern day slavery. This system should be abolished or, at a minimum, the prisoners should be paid at least minimum wage so we don't have the state to pay to lock people up and then some private corporation to profit off slave labor. [1]: https://harvardpolitics.com/involuntary-servitude-how-priso…

> the prisoners should be paid at least minimum wage so we don't have the state to pay to lock people up and then some private corporation to profit off slave labor.

Minimum wage is supposed to cover sustainable food, shelter, clothing and other basic physical needs (leaving aside the question whether it really does, it is the intent). The prisoner has these basic physical needs already taken care of. Therefore, it makes no sense to pay both prisoner and a free low-wage worker the same. Moreover, if it were the situation, the very next day every paper would have a headline "Workers are being paid prisoner wages - outrage!"

However, if the prisoners are allowed to work for commercial for-profit companies, the company that benefits from this work should be asked to cover a substantial part of the prisoner's sustenance bill - which also would be to the taxpayer's benefit. Of course, participation in such programs should be strictly voluntary - I imagine prison life is not too fun, so there should be a number of people who would agree to do it even for a relatively very low wage. That said, it could be incentivized e.g. by taking successful work experience into account for parole decisions, etc.

Re: US newspapers are deleting old crime stories, offering subjects a 'clean slate'

#162

Post by plemer » Sat, Jan 04, 2025, 8:09 PM UTC

jbmchuck wrote: post #140

FredPret wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are private prisons in the US that benefit from more prisoners. But there are many more people and organizations there that benefit from fewer prisoners. For most purposes, a country is not a singular thing.

I suspect that is true but here is the difference: organizations that benefit from fewer prisons have a multitude of other things they benefit from (and can lobby for). Private prison operators on the other hand really only have one thing that can improve their bottom line at the end of the day - more prisons. Outside of a few non-profit orgs I suspect there aren't a lot of dollars lobbying for fewer prisons, it's no…

“Dispersed cost, concentrated gain”

Re: US newspapers are deleting old crime stories, offering subjects a 'clean slate'

#163

Post by UncleEntity » Sat, Jan 04, 2025, 8:09 PM UTC

wat10000 wrote: post #50

bookofjoe wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

25 years ago I got a misdemeanor citation for rollerblading on the sidewalk in downtown Charlottesville, Virginia, which required me to make a court appearance and pay for a VERY expensive lawyer to get the charge thrown out. If instead I'd paid the $25 fine, I'd have had a permanent misdemeanor charge on my record.

I was charged with misdemeanor reckless driving for going the speed limit in heavy rain and hydroplaning into another car. My fault for sure, but a criminal charge seems over the top. Spent $1,500 on a lawyer who negotiated it to a trivial “failure to maintain control” ticket with a maybe $100 fine. The system is dumb. Or maybe it’s smart, giving people with means, like us, favorable treatment without having to outri…

> I was charged with misdemeanor reckless driving for going the speed limit in heavy rain and hydroplaning into another car. My fault for sure, but a criminal charge seems over the top.

If they charged every rain related accident in Arizona as a criminal offence the court system would be clogged up for months after the monsoon season...

Re: US newspapers are deleting old crime stories, offering subjects a 'clean slate'

#164

Post by Brybry » Sat, Jan 04, 2025, 8:10 PM UTC

jgalt212 wrote: post #125

evujumenuk wrote: post #37

I understand this is the general policy in a few places, like Germany. The general idea seems to be that it is more beneficial to a society if criminals are given a viable avenue to lead non-criminal lives again, with the alternative being people going "ah fuck it, I guess I'm a criminal now". I'm surprised at this concept spreading in the US, since the system would generally benefit from having perpetual perpetrator…

> the prison slavery system. extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Where is the enslavement?

To add to sibling comments about the 13th amendment's exception clause (which is what legally allows forced prison labor[1]): forced prison labor has been a state-level ballot issue in recent years.

Colorado voted to abolish slavery and involuntary servitude as punishment for crime in 2018 (though enforcement is reportedly poor). [2][3]

In other states voters have upheld forced labor[4] but sometimes it's because of issues with how it's worded[5].

You can argue it's involuntary servitude instead of slavery but to most people that's a meaningless distinction. Especially while they are being beaten for not working.[6]

[1] https://action.aclu.org/send-message/congress-end-forced-lab...

[2] https://www.npr.org/2018/11/07/665295736/colorado-votes-to-a...

[3] https://www.npr.org/2023/11/13/1210564359/slavery-prison-for...

[4] https://calmatters.org/politics/elections/2024/11/california...

[5] https://lailluminator.com/2022/11/17/the-story-behind-why-lo...

[6] https://apnews.com/article/prison-to-plate-inmate-labor-inve...

Re: US newspapers are deleting old crime stories, offering subjects a 'clean slate'

#165

Post by FpUser » Sat, Jan 04, 2025, 8:12 PM UTC

This whole criminal record piece of shit is a crime on its own. I believe that records of people who served their time or just have been arrested/carded and then let free must be sealed and not accessible to general employers.

Some obvious exceptions can apply but generally people should not be penalized for what they've been penalized already.

Re: US newspapers are deleting old crime stories, offering subjects a 'clean slate'

#166

Post by nine_k » Sat, Jan 04, 2025, 8:13 PM UTC

HPsquared wrote: post #97

Yeul wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before things like the FBI and the telegraph it was quite common for Americans to find a new life in another state. You could be married in New York but nobody in Montana would know unless they actively started an investigation. The world has become a village.

It's one of those feudal villages you can't leave.

It's not because we're indentured, but because we're on an island, and now most of the island is as transparent as a village.

Re: US newspapers are deleting old crime stories, offering subjects a 'clean slate'

#167

Post by FredPret » Sat, Jan 04, 2025, 8:14 PM UTC

teachrdan wrote: post #152

Schiendelman wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I've gotten farther in my career as a product manager, I have to do more and more slicing and dicing of markets to understand who I'm building something for, identify opportunity. It's been really eye-opening to start realizing just how many people refer to a collective as a unit. And how many beliefs are dependent on not inspecting that fallacious thinking.

> It's been really eye-opening to start realizing just how many people refer to a collective as a unit. And how many beliefs are dependent on not inspecting that fallacious thinking. This is the top comment in a chain of siblings that are dogpiling on the parent for no good reason. I'm replying because I think it's a case of pointing out a distinction without difference, which is a low value response up there with "B…

It’s completely fair to say that private prisons have too much pull and that there are bad incentives like you point out.

It’s completely unfair to express surprise that Americans would come up with a way to reduce their prison population because of the notion that they’ve all been captured by the private prison industry.

Re: US newspapers are deleting old crime stories, offering subjects a 'clean slate'

#168

Post by bdangubic » Sat, Jan 04, 2025, 8:14 PM UTC

jmyeet wrote: post #147

krapp wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read the 13th Amendment to the US Constitution: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." The US penal system is explicitly a continuation of the former slave system. Slavery wasn't outlawed in the US, just made a monopoly franchise of the US governmen…

Not sure who's downvoting this because the comment is objectively correct [1][2][3]. The practice of "convict leasing" is modern day slavery. This system should be abolished or, at a minimum, the prisoners should be paid at least minimum wage so we don't have the state to pay to lock people up and then some private corporation to profit off slave labor. [1]: https://harvardpolitics.com/involuntary-servitude-how-priso…

people that don’t have a fucking clue about slavery in their own country are the ones downvoting

Re: US newspapers are deleting old crime stories, offering subjects a 'clean slate'

#169

Post by rangestransform » Sat, Jan 04, 2025, 8:15 PM UTC

This sort of paternalism by “elites” who are “enlightened” and “know better than the proles” is why there is a global pushback against elitism. If people feel like they need this information to protect themselves or their businesses, however misguided, who are you to tell them otherwise?

Re: US newspapers are deleting old crime stories, offering subjects a 'clean slate'

#170

Post by ghaff » Sat, Jan 04, 2025, 8:21 PM UTC

wat10000 wrote: post #104

FireBeyond wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You hit another vehicle, at excessive speed, in poor weather. Fortune meant that the occupants of that other vehicle were not injured or worse. Writing it off as "Oh, I was just clueless" is a little downplaying. Yes, it's a one off instance, but the stakes in vehicles can be very high, hence our requirements for licensing and insurance.

Well I met those requirements and still didn’t know enough to avoid this. On one hand, there’s a responsibility to seek further knowledge and self-evaluate. I accept responsibility for not doing that here. On the other hand, having the government sign off on your training as officially adequate, then threatening to jail you and put a conviction on your record when it wasn’t, seems rather uncool. Hold me liable for da…

People gain more experience. Many/most also naturally become more cautious with age. I know there's a school of thought here that if we just made licensing more time consuming and expensive--whatever the cost in employment possibilities etc.--problems would go away. But I'm not sure how much classes, beyond a certain point, for a young driver really help.