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Laser mapping reveals oldest Amazonian cities, built 2500 years ago (2024)

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Re: Laser mapping reveals oldest Amazonian cities, built 2500 years ago (2024)

#51

Post by itronitron »

nico wrote: post #24

Just finished watching "Ancient Apocalypse" on Netflix. They go over this kind of discovery It's quite speculative, but also really fascinating. Even if what they claim is not completely right, it definitely shows how the current accepted understanding of the history of the Americas needs an overhaul and a lot more research PS: if you like this stuff, also check out the movie "The Lost City of Z"

"Lies My Teacher Told Me" by James Loewen

https://web.archive.org/web/20200329225058/http://sundown.to...

Re: Laser mapping reveals oldest Amazonian cities, built 2500 years ago (2024)

#52

Post by WalterBright »

morkalork wrote: post #42
hosh wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That didn’t just happen in the Amazon. The Pacific Northwest had something like that. My understanding is that the Eastern American forests were curated like that too, before it was cut down. I have heard of an oasis in North Africa that was curated this way, and it still survived despite being abandoned by humans. The modern version of this is called a perennial food forest.

It happens unintentionally too, if you've ever been to a state park in North America and seen an apple tree off of a trail, it's because someone once threw away an apple core.

A slice of my property I leave to grow naturally. I threw out apple cores into it frequently, hoping one will sprout. They never did. I finally just bought an apple tree and planted it there, it now produces delicious apples once a year.

A couple onions I threw there did sprout!

Re: Laser mapping reveals oldest Amazonian cities, built 2500 years ago (2024)

#53

Post by sampo »

nico wrote: post #24

Just finished watching "Ancient Apocalypse" on Netflix. They go over this kind of discovery It's quite speculative, but also really fascinating. Even if what they claim is not completely right, it definitely shows how the current accepted understanding of the history of the Americas needs an overhaul and a lot more research PS: if you like this stuff, also check out the movie "The Lost City of Z"

> check out the movie "The Lost City of Z"

And the 2005 Charles C. Mann book "1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus".

Re: Laser mapping reveals oldest Amazonian cities, built 2500 years ago (2024)

#54

Post by nico »

sampo wrote: post #53
nico wrote: post #24

Just finished watching "Ancient Apocalypse" on Netflix. They go over this kind of discovery It's quite speculative, but also really fascinating. Even if what they claim is not completely right, it definitely shows how the current accepted understanding of the history of the Americas needs an overhaul and a lot more research PS: if you like this stuff, also check out the movie "The Lost City of Z"

> check out the movie "The Lost City of Z" And the 2005 Charles C. Mann book "1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus".

Thank you. Looks like a fascinating read

I remember seeing some discussions about it and related topics here on HN a few years ago

Re: Laser mapping reveals oldest Amazonian cities, built 2500 years ago (2024)

#55

Post by nico »

p_j_w wrote: post #32
nico wrote: post #24

Just finished watching "Ancient Apocalypse" on Netflix. They go over this kind of discovery It's quite speculative, but also really fascinating. Even if what they claim is not completely right, it definitely shows how the current accepted understanding of the history of the Americas needs an overhaul and a lot more research PS: if you like this stuff, also check out the movie "The Lost City of Z"

> Even if what they claim is not completely right It seems even this is not the case and that the show is just completely wrong.

The show seemed very convincing, not in the speculative theories about an ancient precursor civilization necessarily, but definitely in some of the findings they show

Do you have any resources you could share that debunk the specific things they show? Like the rock paintings they dated to 10k years ago, or some of the other digs that were dated as 20-25k years old?

Are you saying it is all made up? Or just some of it?

Re: Laser mapping reveals oldest Amazonian cities, built 2500 years ago (2024)

#56

Post by nico »

xdennis wrote: post #29
nico wrote: post #24

Just finished watching "Ancient Apocalypse" on Netflix. They go over this kind of discovery It's quite speculative, but also really fascinating. Even if what they claim is not completely right, it definitely shows how the current accepted understanding of the history of the Americas needs an overhaul and a lot more research PS: if you like this stuff, also check out the movie "The Lost City of Z"

I don't know if you're aware, but Ancient Apocalypse is pseudo science.

I know it has that reputation. But besides people saying stuff like your comment, I haven’t seen any specifics about exactly what’s wrong

Would you care to elaborate? Have you seen the show? Could you point to the things that are wrong and why?

Genuinely curious and wanting to learn

Re: Laser mapping reveals oldest Amazonian cities, built 2500 years ago (2024)

#57

Post by zackmorris »

hosh wrote: post #36
holmesworcester wrote: post #21

My favorite discovery about Amazon civilization is that the incidence of human-edible fruit trees is much higher in any area near navigable water. They were modifying the forest to be more supportive of humans.

That didn’t just happen in the Amazon. The Pacific Northwest had something like that. My understanding is that the Eastern American forests were curated like that too, before it was cut down. I have heard of an oasis in North Africa that was curated this way, and it still survived despite being abandoned by humans. The modern version of this is called a perennial food forest.

Permaculture is another word for it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permaculture

The city where I live in the PNW has had a huge influx of immigrants from red and blue states who either don't respect the dignity of nonhuman life or want to gentrify communities to their liking. It seems like the first thing they do when they get here is cut down the biggest tree(s) in their yard to live out their pioneer fantasies. I'd say we've lost around 25 trees 75 years or older in just my immediate neighborhood. Then they plant ornamental pears and similar that smell like rotten garbage/death/sex.

Heaven forbid they plant a plumb, walnut or anything they have to (gasp) clean up after. Bumblebees, butterflies and small birds have all but disappeared compared to when we moved in around 2010.

With housing prices going from $100,000 to $500,000 since 2000, while wages haven't even doubled, I'm starting to not recognize this place anymore. It's heartbreaking because it didn't have to be this way. It's not a supply and demand problem, it's a cultural issue. What we value as a society, what we prioritize, how we fund institutions for checks and balances against predatory private equity firms that can't be stopped by the private sector, etc.

Re: Laser mapping reveals oldest Amazonian cities, built 2500 years ago (2024)

#58

Post by tenpies »

gonzo41 wrote: post #9
ge96 wrote: post #2

Everytime I see these I think of lost gold.

Every time i see these I think about Spanish explorers who brought small pox over and caused these cities to collapse, only to return to Spain telling stories of jungle cities. Only to have the fleets turn up to dense jungle years later and fine nothing. But yeah, I also think about lost treasure and Indian Jones a lot with these stories.

I think you are referencing La aventura del Amazonas by Dominican monk Gaspar de Carvajal.

He was one of the survivors of the first European expedition through the Amazon and provides the only account we have of something resembling the pre-European Amazon. He talks about large cities with tall structures, roadworks, and very elaborate societies - nothing compared to our common notion of the Amazonian people.

His account was largely dismissed because it was never replicated, but those who believe it to be accurate theorize that this first Expedition unintentionally caused a population collapse by introducing European diseases. You can imagine that by the time other expeditions were organized, it was a completely different place and the jungle would have easily overgrown any abandoned cities.

Good starting point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaspar_de_Carvajal#The_Relació...

Re: Laser mapping reveals oldest Amazonian cities, built 2500 years ago (2024)

#59

Post by hosh »

PittleyDunkin wrote: post #49
hosh wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that minimizes the fact that people were deliberately curating and designing perennial food forests, historically and contemporarily. Our ancestors may not have the scientific knowledge we have now, but they were just as smart as we are.

> I think that minimizes the fact that people were deliberately curating and designing perennial food forests, historically and contemporarily. I don't see this minimization (after all, we currently do this unintentionally today and nobody sees this as lack of intelligence and I certainly hope I never implied that people in the past were in any way less capable than ourselves) but I do affirm that people were just as…

I've been on a quest to find out what went wrong with modernity. Looking through the history, I found out the Renaissance was not what I thought it was. The history of the Silk Roads were not what I thought it was. And I haven't revisited the history of the industrial revolution, but it looks so far, that is where the obsession with maximizing productivity, gains, and work all come from. It is very likely when I look at it again, it is not what I thought it was either.

The significance of perennial food forests is that it's a practice that comes from a very different world view than our normative one that came from the industrial revolution. Yet there's a tendency to evaluate something like a perennial food forest from the world view of maximizing productivity. Maybe we're talking past each other a bit -- I have not put a lot of thought into the difference in how civilizations arose in the old world vs the new world. The patterns of design for something like the perennial food forests in the Americas have shown up in the Old World as well.

I haven't found Occam's Razor very effective in explanatory powers. Treating the minimum path as the floor is one thing; treating it as the most probable theory (and then making decisions based upon it) is something I have concluded for myself as folly. Just my personal opinion; I'm aware I don't hold a popular opinion.

Re: Laser mapping reveals oldest Amazonian cities, built 2500 years ago (2024)

#60

Post by hoerensagen »

nico wrote: post #56
xdennis wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if you're aware, but Ancient Apocalypse is pseudo science.

I know it has that reputation. But besides people saying stuff like your comment, I haven’t seen any specifics about exactly what’s wrong Would you care to elaborate? Have you seen the show? Could you point to the things that are wrong and why? Genuinely curious and wanting to learn

I think this video is good Ressource on the topic.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-iCIZQX9i1A

Basically Hancock show lots of interesting and fascinating archaeological sites which is great especially since a lot of these are things that most viewers didn't know about before. But sadly he chooses to use these site only to present his theory for which he's doesn't have any actual evidence.

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