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Be a property owner and not a renter on the internet

den.dev

211–220 of 270 posts

Re: Be a property owner and not a renter on the internet

#211
post #44

> Exploiting user-generated content. You know, if I've noticed anything in the past couple years, it's that even if you self-host your own site, it's still going to get hoovered up and used/exploited by things like AI training bots. I think between everyone's code getting trained on, even if it's AGPLv3 or something similarly restrictive, and generally everything public on the internet getting "trained" and "transfor…

> even if you self-host your own site, it's still going to get hoovered up and used/exploited by things like AI training bots. I think between everyone's code getting trained on, even if it's AGPLv3 or something similarly restrictive, and generally everything public on the internet getting "trained" and "transformed" to basically launder it via "AI", I can absolutely see why someone rational would want to share a who…

This post deserves more attention, I think. It's occurred to me as well.

Over the holidays, my father gave my children a book that he had written. It was a photo essay that was 50 pages, and it was titled 'Sharks'. It's an unpublished labor of love that he spent about 500 hours on.

It's a true story centered on Captain Frank Mundus, who operated the Cricket II. He was a renowned shark fisherman and would take people out to fish for enormous sharks. He did this for 40 or 50 years.

An author by the name of Peter Benchley wrote a novel that was heavily inspired by many of Frank's traits, his mannerisms, his approach to shark fishing, the kind of boat he had, the kind of charters he ran. The novel was titled 'Jaws' and received little attention when it was first released. A while after, a director by the name of Steven Spielberg took notice of it and turned it into a multi-million dollar blockbuster movie.

My father was a lawyer that Frank Mundus consulted with and asked, is there any way that he could get a payout for being the inspiration for this character?

My family read the book over the holidays, and it was clearly my father's position that Steven Spielberg and Peter Benchley were maybe the sharks that the title of the book was talking about. The idea that they could make $100 million based on the work and life of this captain and give him literally nothing in return, not even attribution, seemed wrong to him.

I was the lone detractor in the room. My take is that Captain Frank Mundus was just living his life. He was doing what he did to make money chartering fishing trips for sharks. He would have done this regardless of whether or not a writer had come along or a movie had come along. What Peter Benchley and Steven Spielberg did is they found value in his work that he didn't know existed and that he wasn't capable of extracting. I think this is generally true of artists. They wander the world and they create art that gives the viewer a new insight into the experiences the artist had. If artists had to give money back to every real-life inspiration, I think the whole system wouldn't work.

I see parallels with the current attitudes toward AI. I think writers are a lot like Captain Mundus. They're living their life, they're writing their stories, or doing their research and publishing, and having people read their works. And copyright is helping them do all this.

AI companies have come along and found value in their work that they didn't know existed and they were never capable of extracting. And that's OK: that's what innovation is, taking the work that others have done and building on it to create something new.

I'm not unequivocally in favor of all applications of AI, but I do think there are tons of places that can be super helpful and we should allow it to be helpful. One example: I'm drafting this on my phone using Futo keyboard entirely with my voice. Extremely useful, but no doubt trained on copyrighted content.

Re: Be a property owner and not a renter on the internet

#212
post #44

> Exploiting user-generated content. You know, if I've noticed anything in the past couple years, it's that even if you self-host your own site, it's still going to get hoovered up and used/exploited by things like AI training bots. I think between everyone's code getting trained on, even if it's AGPLv3 or something similarly restrictive, and generally everything public on the internet getting "trained" and "transfor…

The low adoption rate is another big plus of the Gemini protocol and similar solutions for a Javascript-free and open internet.

Re: Be a property owner and not a renter on the internet

#213
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I don't understand is why you would think that GitHub Pages is an acceptable alternative : it's kind of the equivalent of being a doctor and recommending Oxycodone to cure hangover for someone of alcoholic tendencies...

Because you can get your own domain in front of it and export your content (i.e. Markdown). Users would land on your domain name, but it doesn't really matter if it's hosted on your PC or GitHub. The point is that you would be able to change providers very easily without having to make people migrate to your new platform.

And it doesn't try to suck you into the Microsoft "ecosystem" ??

Re: Be a property owner and not a renter on the internet

#214
post #44

> Exploiting user-generated content. You know, if I've noticed anything in the past couple years, it's that even if you self-host your own site, it's still going to get hoovered up and used/exploited by things like AI training bots. I think between everyone's code getting trained on, even if it's AGPLv3 or something similarly restrictive, and generally everything public on the internet getting "trained" and "transfor…

> even if you self-host your own site, it's still going to get hoovered up and used/exploited by things like AI training bots. I think between everyone's code getting trained on, even if it's AGPLv3 or something similarly restrictive, and generally everything public on the internet getting "trained" and "transformed" to basically launder it via "AI", I can absolutely see why someone rational would want to share a who…

The dilemma here is that the incentive to capture value for yourself comes from the legitimate fear that someone else will try to capture all that residual value you leave on the table instead of allowing that value to be socialized in a healthy way. Which means enshitification becomes the default for everyone.

Re: Be a property owner and not a renter on the internet

#215
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, if I've noticed anything in the past couple years, it's that even if you self-host your own site, it's still going to get hoovered up and used/exploited by things like AI training bots. So? What do I care? If some stuff I posted to my website (with no requirement for attribution or remuneration, and also no guarantee that the information is true or valid) can improve the AI services that I use, great.

Wouldn't you feel just a little bad if you worked really hard on something, gave it out for free in the spirit of sharing, and someone came along and said thanks, loser , and sold it for money? Would you want to go on making it for free for them to sell?

No. If I cared, I wouldn't have posted the information in the first place... or I would have erected a paywall.

Re: Be a property owner and not a renter on the internet

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, if I've noticed anything in the past couple years, it's that even if you self-host your own site, it's still going to get hoovered up and used/exploited by things like AI training bots. So? What do I care? If some stuff I posted to my website (with no requirement for attribution or remuneration, and also no guarantee that the information is true or valid) can improve the AI services that I use, great.

Even if no attribution etc is your personal policy that’s not everyone else’s. The end result is that any authors who care about copyright protection will become less accessible. It’s a gold rush for AI bots to capture the good will of early internet creators before the well runs dry,

Even if no attribution etc is your personal policy that’s not everyone else’s.

That's up to the courts. As usual, we will all lose if the copyright maximalists win.

Re: Be a property owner and not a renter on the internet

#217
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the source of the contrary sentiment goes something like this: AI stuff (especially image generation) is competition for artists. They don't much like competition that can easily undercut them on price, so they want to veto it somehow and lean on their go-to of accusing anybody who competes with them of theft. The problem in this case is that it doesn't matter. The AI stuff is going to exist, and compete with…

I think that's an overly reductive way of looking at it. Artists, are by their definition, creators of art. AI-generated "art" (it's not art at all in my eyes) is effectively a machine-based reproduction of actual art, but doesn't take the same skill level, time, and passion for the craft for a user to be able to generate an output, and certainly generates large profits for those that created the models. So, imagine…

AI-generated "art" (it's not art at all in my eyes) is effectively a machine-based reproduction of actual art, but doesn't take the same skill level, time, and passion for the craft for a user to be able to generate an output, and certainly generates large profits for those that created the models.

(Shrug) Artists were wrong when they said the same thing about cameras at the dawn of photography, and they're wrong now.

If you expect to coast through life while everything around you stays the same, neither art nor technology is a great career choice.

Re: Be a property owner and not a renter on the internet

#218
post #44

> Exploiting user-generated content. You know, if I've noticed anything in the past couple years, it's that even if you self-host your own site, it's still going to get hoovered up and used/exploited by things like AI training bots. I think between everyone's code getting trained on, even if it's AGPLv3 or something similarly restrictive, and generally everything public on the internet getting "trained" and "transfor…

What is your purpose of publishing where having the content used to train AI is a problem? Are you trying to gatekeep information that's not even protected by copyright anyway? Are you worried your potential audience will get the same thing (including your personal creativity) from AI that just copied your work so they don't recognize your name and develop some brand awareness? Or do you just not like AI and don't want to help it? Maybe you could build your own paywall or other technical access restriction instead of making it freely available? Even just a captcha should block AI training scrapers, shouldn't it?

Re: Be a property owner and not a renter on the internet

#219
post #44

> Exploiting user-generated content. You know, if I've noticed anything in the past couple years, it's that even if you self-host your own site, it's still going to get hoovered up and used/exploited by things like AI training bots. I think between everyone's code getting trained on, even if it's AGPLv3 or something similarly restrictive, and generally everything public on the internet getting "trained" and "transfor…

What is your purpose of publishing where having the content used to train AI is a problem? Are you trying to gatekeep information that's not even protected by copyright anyway? Are you worried your potential audience will get the same thing (including your personal creativity) from AI that just copied your work so they don't recognize your name and develop some brand awareness? Or do you just not like AI and don't wa…

No attribution with ai

Re: Be a property owner and not a renter on the internet

#220
post #104
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Meta "sublicensed" my image to someone else, I wouldn't have much to say there. but you agreed to this, when agreeing to the TOS. > I post a picture on my site that is then used by a large publisher for ads, I would (at least in theory) have some recourse which you didn't sign any contract, and therefore it is a violation of copyright. But the new AI training methods are currently, at least imho, not a violation of…

Strong disagree on the last paragraph. It's data online, your data, and it was used for commercial purposes without your consent. In fact, I never consented for anyone to access my server. Just because it has an IP address, does not make it a public service. Obviously in a practical sense that is a silly position to take, and in prior cases there is usually an extenuating factor that got the person charged, eg breaki…

Content is often publicly available and copyright protected. Paint a mural near a busy street. No locked door in that metaphor; locked door would be password protected site.
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