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Ask HN: Does the Framework laptop stand the test of time?

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Re: Ask HN: Does the Framework laptop stand the test of time?

#61

Post by znpy »

throwaway519 wrote: post #13

Instead of contributing to more electronic waste and as an economic purchase, I... use used ThinkPads. Advantages: Zero new electronic waste created. Several 'new' machines are cheaper than a Framework. Small upgrades plentiful and cheap. A major upgrade of a'new' machine still cheaper and more environmentally friendly than a Framework. Better battery life, keyboard, ergonomic design, ports, hinges LOL, etc. Try one…

Used ThinkPads used to be my way to go without even thinking about it but nowadays i don't think it's worth it anymore.

Many laptops i'm interested in come with soldered ram, meaning i can only buy something that's old and will stay old.

A lot of X280 and X13 come with 8gb or 16ram, which is truly a shame. I had 16gb ram in my X220 in 2014, ten/eleven years ago.

A lot of interesting ThinkPad models now come with a fixed keyboard i cannot change. Being somebody that likes us-ansi keyboard but that does not live in the US this means most eBay offers are not appealing to me.

Last ThinkPad i bought (X270) i just replaced the keyboard and ram (8->16gb). I cannot do that anymore with most models.

My X270 (for private use) it's getting old and I'm considering going for a brand-new laptop this time.

I have doubts between a new ThinkPad or a Framework. If Framework had an option to get trackpoint/ultranav that would be a no brainer.

I'm seriously torn on this. I'll probably go with a Framework 13 though.

I keep my laptop for many years each time so the idea of having the possibility to bump a laptop to up to 96gb ram (2 x 48gb ddr5) in some years is truly appealing.

Re: Ask HN: Does the Framework laptop stand the test of time?

#62

Post by frankie_t »

I bought a used one, the battery life is quite sorry. It can live for maybe 2h using their linux with powertop improvements. Maybe linux is part of the problem and windows would perform better (heard an argument that linux driver writers are not privy to the hw details and so cannot write energy-efficient drivers).

I hate to say it as a linux fan, but if battery life was any important I would buy a mac. I have mac pro 2017 which is probably of the same age, if not older, and the battery life is just so much better.

Re: Ask HN: Does the Framework laptop stand the test of time?

#63

Post by znpy »

jtwaleson wrote: post #22
mongol wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ThinkPads often come up in these discussions but does not the same apply for example for business versions of Dell laptops? Such as Latitude and Precision. I kept one alive for almost ten years, occasionally replacing parts with secondhand parts. It still works perfectly but I have it as a spare now.

ThinkPads are timeless square black boxes with a red trackpoint. Having the same design since 1992 definitely makes them iconic, and this probably helped in creating a large fanbase. Realistically you might get the same mileage with a Dell, but to fans, it feels different.

> Realistically you might get the same mileage with a Dell, but to fans, it feels different.

Not quite, and I tried.

Dell laptops with bother you if your power supply is not a genuine dell one.

Dell refused to repair a second-hand dell laptop (xps 15) under warranty because I did not have the receipt of original purchased.

Lenovo repaired my second-hand ThinkPad no question asked, because it was still under warranty. And the laptop i bought had the pick&return warranty package, so they sent a courier to pick the laptop from my home and they delivered it back within the same week.

Dell has been just unreliable in my experience. I fixed that laptop myself and sold it as soon as I could (and bought another used ThinkPad).

Re: Ask HN: Does the Framework laptop stand the test of time?

#64

Post by znpy »

commandersaki wrote: post #60
grecy wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do exactly the same with Apple laptops. Just replaced a 2015 MBP (that I bought used in 2019) with a 2021 MBA. Before that I had a 2011 MBA. New one is 16GB/2TB and was $700. It’s the fastest computer i have ever used by a wide margin - editing tens of thousands of raw files in Lightroom, editing 4K footage (which previous machines could not even do). I sold the old MBP for $200, so I’m spending around $500 every 4…

Nice, you did the same as me, which is skip the whole butterfly era of Apple laptops. Those were dark days for the company.

> Those were dark days for the company.

Were they? Apple's earnings grew a lot during those time.

The harsh truth is that Apple's userbase will complain but in the end will keep buying anyway.

Re: Ask HN: Does the Framework laptop stand the test of time?

#65

Post by RGamma »

riedel wrote: post #41
jtwaleson wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ThinkPads are timeless square black boxes with a red trackpoint. Having the same design since 1992 definitely makes them iconic, and this probably helped in creating a large fanbase. Realistically you might get the same mileage with a Dell, but to fans, it feels different.

The last ThinkPad I was really happy with was the X61 I had though. I, however, got used to the track point, so I stocked. The Z13 is only half a ThinkPad but at least Lenovo did considerable engineering to solve the thermal issues of new processors fitted into the old ThinkPad design for 13 in. Now I only have tons of BIOS/firmware/driver issues. Often doesn't hibernate and spin loops until battery is empty and my w…

Yeah, I've always used ThinkPads and while IMO they're on average good devices, you better not buy the wrong series and/or iteration.

The LX40 had an atrocious clickpad. The previous LX30 had serious WiFi issues, that I fixed by swapping the card, but it was overall the better device. Then there's issues with trackpoint drifting. On my oldest one the trackpoint simply died.

On my e495 I'm getting weird driver issues, like Windows replacing the AMD graphics driver with a different one, so the Radeon control panel won't load and I can't control that useless VariBright feature. I can prevent Windows from doing this, but then one day the driver was just... gone and I've concluded that it's just better to let Windows do its thing. Also, crashes in Teams with too many windows open and while sharing, seemingly regardless of driver. Weird audio fuckups where the audio output craps itself randomly and starts crackling until reboot (fixed by installing an old Conexant driver and locking it down with group policy).

Also, they make some questionable design choices, like swapping Fn and Ctrl, which you can at least undo in BIOS. My newest one (E16 Gen2 Intel) has FnLock enabled by default (wtf?). Gotta ask why they even removed the separate utility bar above function keys in the first place. And then there isn't even buttons for media control anymore...

Also, don't get me started on Lenovo (Commercial) Vantage, which is an incredibly invasive and janky piece of software, but it does let me limit charging.

For some very fortunate reason I've never had sleep or hibernation problems. Feels like I dodged many bullets over the years.

Re: Ask HN: Does the Framework laptop stand the test of time?

#66

Post by magic_smoke_ee »

throwaway519 wrote: post #13

Instead of contributing to more electronic waste and as an economic purchase, I... use used ThinkPads. Advantages: Zero new electronic waste created. Several 'new' machines are cheaper than a Framework. Small upgrades plentiful and cheap. A major upgrade of a'new' machine still cheaper and more environmentally friendly than a Framework. Better battery life, keyboard, ergonomic design, ports, hinges LOL, etc. Try one…

I use a T480 (bought new a lot time ago) moderately-capable gaming PC (lol):

- 3 extended, swappable batteries + third-party external battery charger (also has an internal battery T490 lacks)

- 32 GiB RAM

- i7-8650U

- 2 TiB SSD

- Retrofit/modded magnesium top case

- I pre-acquired replacement parts like fans, hinges, backlit keyboards, and case screws

- Works with Windows 11 + Razer Core X TB3 with an RTX 3070 Ti eGPU

Needs a couple of utilities to max out CPU TDP to 25W.

Re: Ask HN: Does the Framework laptop stand the test of time?

#67

Post by magic_smoke_ee »

mongol wrote: post #16
throwaway519 wrote: post #13

Instead of contributing to more electronic waste and as an economic purchase, I... use used ThinkPads. Advantages: Zero new electronic waste created. Several 'new' machines are cheaper than a Framework. Small upgrades plentiful and cheap. A major upgrade of a'new' machine still cheaper and more environmentally friendly than a Framework. Better battery life, keyboard, ergonomic design, ports, hinges LOL, etc. Try one…

ThinkPads often come up in these discussions but does not the same apply for example for business versions of Dell laptops? Such as Latitude and Precision. I kept one alive for almost ten years, occasionally replacing parts with secondhand parts. It still works perfectly but I have it as a spare now.

Has a milspec drop rating and some can survive liquid spills with integrated keyboard drain holes.

Re: Ask HN: Does the Framework laptop stand the test of time?

#68

Post by Sammi »

andreareina wrote: post #45
commandersaki wrote: post #4

Bought a Framework 13" in 2022 (Intel 13th gen). It's equipped with 32GB ram and a 1TB drive. It has good intentions but falls short. I would say overall it is a mediocre laptop in terms of quality. Will it last longer than any other laptop? I would think so, it has a strong story of available parts and upgrades. Similarly I believe it would last longer than any other laptop, since you can essentially do a Ship of Th…

The way I see the modular ports story is that the use-case is less being able to switch them, more getting the ports you want. I've got a usb c on either side, which I don't have with my work ThinkPad. I still have a usb a yubikey, so I can make sure to have that port. etc Agreed on the battery unfortunately, on my first gen 13" it's just mediocre.

Yeah most people don't have a lot of things connected to their laptop, or else they more likely would have bought a desktop. But the things that different people have connected to their laptop is often quite different from each other.

So most people don't need a lot of ports, they just might need different ports.

Re: Ask HN: Does the Framework laptop stand the test of time?

#69

Post by dustincoates »

andreareina wrote: post #45
commandersaki wrote: post #4

Bought a Framework 13" in 2022 (Intel 13th gen). It's equipped with 32GB ram and a 1TB drive. It has good intentions but falls short. I would say overall it is a mediocre laptop in terms of quality. Will it last longer than any other laptop? I would think so, it has a strong story of available parts and upgrades. Similarly I believe it would last longer than any other laptop, since you can essentially do a Ship of Th…

The way I see the modular ports story is that the use-case is less being able to switch them, more getting the ports you want. I've got a usb c on either side, which I don't have with my work ThinkPad. I still have a usb a yubikey, so I can make sure to have that port. etc Agreed on the battery unfortunately, on my first gen 13" it's just mediocre.

Agree on the modular port reasoning. My most commonly used non-charging port is the micro SD card, which I imagine is rare.

Re: Ask HN: Does the Framework laptop stand the test of time?

#70

Post by snapplebobapple »

Iridescent_ wrote: post #40
snapplebobapple wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love mine too (have owned every 13" they have made either personally or at work, plus the new 16"). Having the actual usb recessed and having a sacrificial usb-c as the one you use has saved taken me from breaking usb-c ports at roughly one a year to zero. The upgradeability and serviceability is real as well. That beings said, my complaints about them are: They are a few hundred dollars more expensive than compara…

I fully expect that the intention is to force you into opening up the laptop to install the RAM. RAM is so easy to install that there's basically no risk of the customer messing up, and it exposes you to how easy it is to open up your laptop and how high quality the build is. Worked very well for me, I knew I would not accept buying anything of a lower standard before I even powered it on for the first time.

If it's actually an advertising expense then it's likely priced wrong. They should give the real price in the business section (where people don't want to have to install because they are buying multiples of them and where that price is obscured from the consumer) and have an even higher price for the fully assembled one (and a bit lower price for the unassembled one). Now if 80 % plus of their consumer business is the diy one right now then I'm wrong, but I doubt I am.
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