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BioTerrorism Will Save Your Life with the 4 Thieves Vinegar Collective [video]

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Re: BioTerrorism Will Save Your Life with the 4 Thieves Vinegar Collective [video]

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because if the idea they're proving is that basic chemistry does what textbooks say basic chemistry should do I'm not sure I understand the impact of the "POC" here. That's all; I'm not baiting, I'm genuinely wondering what I'm missing.

Well, again, the text of the video. No more but no less either. It's not merely showing that already known basic chemistry works as we already knew it worked. It's almost like but again not merely showing that you can make your own cottage cheese at home instead of buying it as a commercially made product. Countless medecines, and their delivery mechanisms, exist that could be produced in a more diy way, but most peo…

The deal with epi pens is simply that epinephrine is cheap, but the "pen" mechanism is patented.

Re: BioTerrorism Will Save Your Life with the 4 Thieves Vinegar Collective [video]

#202

https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/anarchist-drugs-ag... >"Our ultimate hope is to get to a point where we're no longer necessary because the notion of DIY medicine, no matter anybody's opinion of it is common enough that if it comes up in conversation, someone can say 'Oh I'm just going to 3D print a replacement'". >No, no, that is not going to be happening any time soon, or (frankly) at all. I could go one f…

It's nice to have an expert's perspective, but he undermines himself a bit. He says this:

> The people who believe this stuff when they hear it will not be persuaded, because I'm obviously a Big Pharma Shill.

Pre-empting any counterpoint to his arguments by saying they'll unfairly dismiss him. A rather smug approach to the "little guy", but possibly warranted. But his previous post on the subject has this gem:

> What I'm getting at is that people like Four Thieves Vinegar are not developing drugs. They're trying to find cheap, easily replicable ways to make and distribute drugs that other people have already spent the time and money to develop. If the capitalists of the world hadn't ponied up the at-risk funding to find those drugs in the first place, there would be nothing for anarcho-hacker pharma collectives to do. Speaking for the Big Evil Pharma Industry, if I may, you Vinegar Thieves are living in our basement and subsisting on what we provide.

First of all: we've been hearing for over century the line about superhero-capitalist John Galts deserving to billionaires because they were the ones who "ponied up the at-risk funding", and it's extremely shaky, if not outright bullshit. Especially in the pharma industry, where X% of "discoveries" come straight from government funding, not private capital (with X being an endlessly argued number, but almost certainly above 50). Secondly: Four Thieves Vinegar Collective don't appear to be claiming any discoveries, so what exactly is he arguing here? Couldn't he levy the same complaint against every generic drug manufacturer, that they're "living in the basement" of the Big Smart Important Guys like him? These statements are pretty close to what you'd expect from a "Big Pharma Shill" that he's pre-emptively trying to immunize himself from being accused of.

Re: BioTerrorism Will Save Your Life with the 4 Thieves Vinegar Collective [video]

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

The comment I replied to was implying that the positives were oversold, but to my read didn't really mention any negatives. What negative consequences are you talking about? Currently your framing makes it seem even better: some (IMO) substantial positive consequences, and no negative ones.

You are unable to think of any potential negative consequences of amateur drug synthesis?

Re: BioTerrorism Will Save Your Life with the 4 Thieves Vinegar Collective [video]

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s sadly never that simple. You quickly run into “and now we have to regulate it further” at every step because contracts have to be exhaustive in order to be clear, risks cannot be fully known in advance, rational people can disagree about what is misleading, etc.

This already happens even with regulations. It is impossible to fix. Also, note thst even with regulations and, more important, INSIDE regulated areas, these things already happen. I think there is a case to discuss what constitutes harm, but pretending that regulated means "harmless and ok" and not regulated "evil and dangerous" is a bad mindset and the one that is dragging us to a false sense of security via hyper…

> This already happens even with regulations.

Agreed, that was sadly part of my point. They never end but not having them also doesn’t solve the problem for everyone. Some folks will want more, some won’t, at any balancing point.

Re: BioTerrorism Will Save Your Life with the 4 Thieves Vinegar Collective [video]

#205
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taking? Yes. It's the selling and marketing that's the social disaster, see the opiates scandal.

As long as that marketing is not misleading and the contract is clear, with all dangers exposed, it should also be legal IMHO. What should not be legal is fooling someone into taking something without knowing its consequences for the potential harm produced. The rest should be ok.

See also "capitalism is a system of voluntary transactions between individuals so it is not capable of causing harm"

Re: BioTerrorism Will Save Your Life with the 4 Thieves Vinegar Collective [video]

#206
post #81

Recently, from Derek Lowe, on this project: https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/anarchist-drugs-ag... "It's like saying that you're going to make your own aluminum foil."

Us tech people really need to stop with the whole “I’m good at writing code so I must be good at X too” thing

Re: BioTerrorism Will Save Your Life with the 4 Thieves Vinegar Collective [video]

#207
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you, as you are, were forced to go through puberty of the opposite sex as a child, would you have been ok with that? You could get into the trolley paradox of action vs inaction doing harm but really this is the same thing: do you force a person to go through the wrong puberty. The correct puberty isn’t damaging, the wrong one is. As a cis man, I sure am happy nobody forced me to go through a female puberty.

You are asking a question of science fiction. It is impossible for anyone to undergo the puberty of the opposite sex because, obviously, they are not of that sex. As you are male, there is no method by which you could have gone through female puberty. So your hypothetical of this being forced upon you is nonsense.

Ever had depression? Ever tried explaining it to somebody but they brush you off?

One man's "Depression" is another man's "normal brain function; life just gets hard sometimes and that's natural." Explaining to the latter person how dehabilitating the experience is doesn't matter because one person cares about subjective inner experience and the other cares about mechanistic physiology.

Similarly, one person's puberty can be extremely traumatic. People who aren't trans wouldn't understand.

Re: BioTerrorism Will Save Your Life with the 4 Thieves Vinegar Collective [video]

#208
post #81

Recently, from Derek Lowe, on this project: https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/anarchist-drugs-ag... "It's like saying that you're going to make your own aluminum foil."

You don't need to make aluminum foil at home because it's cheaper and higher quality to buy the mass produced version from Walmart.

For medications (and anything where artificial scarcity is created with IP), it can be cheaper to create the product at home instead of buying it. If homemade quality is 'good enough', that's a reasonable option.

For comparison, I make my own sauerkraut. The stuff at Walmart is fine, but it's cheaper and higher quality to make at home.

The same logic applies to lots of software.

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