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Apple and Meta go to war over interoperability vs. privacy

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Re: Apple and Meta go to war over interoperability vs. privacy

#141

Post by rpdillon »

briandear wrote: post #123
gruez wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Apple routinely rejects apps that try tactics like this. This is going to be irrelevant in the EU once sideloading gets popular.

Why would a normal person want to sideload?

Because it's crazy to think that the two dominant app stores are going to have policies that exactly match people's needs, and that they'll implement those policies competently.

Syncing files with Syncthing is no longer possible on Android because the Android team won't fix the performance of storage access framework, for example. This is 100% on Google, not Syncthing.

But I can still use SyncThing-fork because it's on FDroid. Similarly for the Fossify apps, Quillnote, KeepassDX, Privacy Browser, and dozens of others.

Apple will never put in the effort to make a community that thrives on sharing open source apps that are not profit driven. It's simply not in their DNA. And I don't want to have to live in a world where every developer that wants to make a mobile app has to pay a tithe to the overlords of Google and Apple. They will always claim that they're fixing security problems by acting as an intermediary, but there's no way for them to do that without replacing my choices with theirs, and nothing in Google's or Apple's decision-making history indicates they're better equipped to make decisions governing my machines than I am.

So why would a normal person want to sideload? Because they don't want Google and Apple telling them what software they can install on devices they purchased.

Re: Apple and Meta go to war over interoperability vs. privacy

#142

Post by brudgers »

mort96 wrote: post #57
crest wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple shouldn't be allowed to lock down APIs between system components to give themselves a competitive advantage, but that doesn't mean Meta should be allowed decide if they're getting that access. Let Apple offer users the option: allow once, allow permanently, refuse, or fake empty responses without telling the app.

Users will be faced with a dialog saying "to use Facebook, you must accept XYZ", and their only options will be to accept or to not use the app. Facebook will detect empty or fake data and lock the user out unless they acquiesce.

These days, that's true for pretty much everything...including my Android Phone and my iPhone and much software on my laptop. Hell, it's true for a lot of websites too.

Not saying it doesn't suck, only that it is very ordinary and ubiquitous.

Re: Apple and Meta go to war over interoperability vs. privacy

#143

Post by aoanevdus »

plagiarist wrote: post #90
HWR_14 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did they back off of that? I have an older oculus I can dig out if I can safely walk its data off from Meta

The last time I complained about this someone mentioned they "only" force a Meta account and not a whole Facebook identity. That's a distinction without a difference to me. I will not be purchasing hardware that requires a cloud account. Especially not a peripheral.

Xbox is pretty popular while requiring a Microsoft account.

Re: Apple and Meta go to war over interoperability vs. privacy

#144

Post by ben_w »

BlueTemplar wrote: post #138
LexGray wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly the type of apps people would sideload. Little things that somehow violate App Store rules abusing APIs, lying about app capability, just being ethically dubious. Use flash to create seizures, nudity people realtime, hack your ex, damage the device, cheat at games, spam your enemies, etc. There is an infinite use case for tiny malicious apps finding malicious or gullible users and with side loading there are…

Android is way more popular in the EU than iPhone, allows sideloading, and I am not aware of these issues being rampant with it ?

While sideloading is possible on Android, it appears to be sufficiently difficult that Google isn't effective with the argument that this makes them "not a monopoly".

As a tech person I find this weird, but then I remember the relevant XKCD: https://xkcd.com/2501/

Re: Apple and Meta go to war over interoperability vs. privacy

#145

Post by luke-stanley »

Is this Hacker News? This is way bigger than Meta. Should individuals have the freedom to access to their own phone data without needing to be a device manufacturer? Or should we depend on case by case approval of access that is outside of the users hands and something only big companies can do?

Framing it as being about `Apple vs Meta` is exactly the line of thinking that Apple wants, and it does a disservice to real Apple users, who have repeatedly been locked into a ecosystem where they have little control of their own data, where even sharing photos over Bluetooth isn't even an option! It's so locked in it's really unreasonable to frame this as being about Meta. Of course users should be able to give none / empty / fake or even real data to Meta if they so choose. But really this is about Apple, user rights, the EU, and a more fair playing field. If you read the PDF Apple put out, they are not offering any kind of middle solution, they are just saying they will, as usual, review case by case device partnership opportunities as it pleases them.

Re: Apple and Meta go to war over interoperability vs. privacy

#146

Post by inetknght »

nox101 wrote: post #118
inetknght wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is wrong with the status quo? Businesses are deciding who lives and who dies, instead of people being allowed to have their own choice in the matter. These businesses make decisions based on data stolen from users. If the data were on paper in a person's home, it would be considered private and inaccessible. Why should a company decide that they should have access to your every move and every data, just becaus…

It's funny, you're first sentence "Businesses are deciding who lives and who dies, instead of people being allowed to have their own choice in the matter" to me meant "Apple deciding who can and can not do business with users of iPhones" The status quo is that Apple has this power on top of the power to collect 30% for all digital transactions (or be denied on the store) and the power to force Apple Pay support to be…

> The status quo is ...

> That's the status quo that the EU is addressing.

> Note: I don't want FB to have my data. I also don't want Apple to have those powers enumerated above.

Yes, and I concur.

Re: Apple and Meta go to war over interoperability vs. privacy

#147

Post by inetknght »

nyclounge wrote: post #122
inetknght wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is wrong with the status quo? Businesses are deciding who lives and who dies, instead of people being allowed to have their own choice in the matter. These businesses make decisions based on data stolen from users. If the data were on paper in a person's home, it would be considered private and inaccessible. Why should a company decide that they should have access to your every move and every data, just becaus…

>Note: I don't want FB to have my data. I also don't want Apple to have those powers enumerated above. In an ideal world that would be great. However, right now it is either Apple of Google when it comes to smart devices for average consumers. Kinda like political dichotomy in US politics. Democracy will not function with an educated public. And dumbing down choices are just a way to get give power to megacorp and po…

> Democracy will not function with an educated public.

What makes you think that?

> dumbing down choices are just a way to get give power to megacorp and political institutions

Yes, and an educated public would find better ways to convey the same information because they can use their education to build a new thing, or build regulations or laws where they see a need, or build defenses against adversaries without sacrificing privacy. You can't do that with your local public (eg, citizens) if your citizens aren't able to comprehend the problems they're encountering.

Re: Apple and Meta go to war over interoperability vs. privacy

#148

Post by vouaobrasil »

watermelon0 wrote: post #137
vouaobrasil wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with the cookies thing though is that it didn't mandate that websites should work well WITHOUT cookies. The cookie popups aren't bad but often the only option is "necessary cookies". We should have a "no cookies" option, too.

There are necessary cookies for sites to operate. For example, you need a cookie for authentication or a server-side e-commerce basket.

True. But those sites should only enable them when you decide to create an account/login.

Re: Apple and Meta go to war over interoperability vs. privacy

#149

Post by vouaobrasil »

3874744848 wrote: post #45
vouaobrasil wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that is truly a foregone conclusion then we should eradicate the megacorps, not pander to them or negotiate with them.

Why? Not philosophically why but genuinely why? The consumer isn't less for their choice, if they saw people suffering damage they found concerning they'd actually be hesitant. And at the same time it's not like equivalent open solutions are going to emerge, we've had decades of cyber-activist products meant to 'empower' users by providing similar functionality to the commercial products of their time and they almost…

1. Corporations are too powerful and responsible for too much tragedy of the commons, especially with regard to global trade.

2. The end goal of corporations is ultimate wealth concentration and the destruction of local economies.

3. Corporations combined with technology means too much technological growth at too fast a pace

The world would be better off without the biggest 10 of them for sure.

Re: Apple and Meta go to war over interoperability vs. privacy

#150

Post by gruez »

worik wrote: post #140
gruez wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Then the EU can stop them from selling their products to EU customers So you want the EU to play whack-a-mole with fly by night IoT vendors, some of which might be shipping directly from China? Or do you want to fix this with even more regulation, like requiring licenses to import IoT products or whatever?

> So you want the EU to play whack-a-mole with fly by night IoT vendors Yes Like they do with other online criminals

Yeah, I'm sure the EU sending angry letters to nameless IoT company in shenzhen is going to be very effective.
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