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Apple and Meta go to war over interoperability vs. privacy

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Re: Apple and Meta go to war over interoperability vs. privacy

#31

Post by oneeyedpigeon »

vouaobrasil wrote: post #28
zaptheimpaler wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we saw how well this approach worked with the cookie popups post GDPR. It doesn't really work. At this point I feel most people have some idea of how their data is used and sold and if they continue to use Meta apps, its because they think the tradeoff is worth it. There are either no alternatives or strong network effects that make Instagram, Facebook, Whatsapp etc a worthwhile choice in many cases and we kn…

The problem with the cookies thing though is that it didn't mandate that websites should work well WITHOUT cookies. The cookie popups aren't bad but often the only option is "necessary cookies". We should have a "no cookies" option, too.

That would address a very different need, though: accessibility vs. data protection.

Re: Apple and Meta go to war over interoperability vs. privacy

#32

Post by NikolaNovak »

zaptheimpaler wrote: post #17
oefrha wrote: post #10

The Reuters report on this is much more detailed: https://www.reuters.com/technology/apple-slams-metas-numerou... And yes, Meta isn’t denying requesting everything under the sun. Their only retort is Apple’s privacy concerns are anticompetitive excuses. Two things can be true: Apple is only protecting their own interests, and Meta is a terrible would-be guardian of all the data they’re requesting.

Also Apple's own apps request permissions the same way third party apps do

I just got a new iPhone two weeks ago (corporate mandated:(.

I don't recall messages, photos, apple maps, notes, camera, calendar etc asking me detailed permissions. I think health did ask for some.

Installing equivalent Facebook messenger, Google photos, Google calendar, etc also of course did.

(Greediest award goes to whatsapp which basically doesn't work unless you grant it full access to contacts boo)

Re: Apple and Meta go to war over interoperability vs. privacy

#33

Post by JKCalhoun »

oefrha wrote: post #20
zaptheimpaler wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also Apple's own apps request permissions the same way third party apps do

They certainly don’t. We’re talking about apps like Phone, Messages, Photos, Files and system stuff like app tracking (Screen Time etc.).

When you first set up an iPhone (and other hardware like AirPods, for example) you are asked whether to share anonymized usage data with Apple. Saying "No" at that screen turns off a whole swath of data collection.

I wonder what specific examples you are aware of that are not disabled in this manner?

Re: Apple and Meta go to war over interoperability vs. privacy

#34

Post by smolder »

doodlesdev wrote: post #7
vouaobrasil wrote: post #4

At the very least, for apps that require this much access, such "interoperability" should be off by default with a big warning that says: [ ] Check here if you want to share all your data (or something more precise) with Meta. Warning: possibly insecure. Use at your own risk.

Every user would just check that option and press yes. The reality is that most users don't ever read any message the phone gives to them, they just treat it like any other popup and press yes. Take a look at any normal person using a phone when a permission notification appears or an error appears: they won't even read it, just press any button that closes it as fast as possible. There's good reason to not have this…

"Every user would check that option" is obviously incorrect. When given the option not to share information, a great deal choose not to. I won't pull a percentage out of thin air, but peoples tendency towards "deny" when given the option is the reason for a lot of the dark patterns that exist (e.g. spamming address book permission dialogs, non-compliant cookie dialogs) and for spying as much as possible without permission. Asking permission for things that might be considered invasive is still the ethical thing to do, and in the early days of computing before the profit motive became overwhelming, developers tended to do the ethical thing, unlike today.

Re: Apple and Meta go to war over interoperability vs. privacy

#35

Post by oefrha »

NikolaNovak wrote: post #32
zaptheimpaler wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also Apple's own apps request permissions the same way third party apps do

I just got a new iPhone two weeks ago (corporate mandated:(. I don't recall messages, photos, apple maps, notes, camera, calendar etc asking me detailed permissions. I think health did ask for some. Installing equivalent Facebook messenger, Google photos, Google calendar, etc also of course did. (Greediest award goes to whatsapp which basically doesn't work unless you grant it full access to contacts boo)

I had to contact someone in Europe so I started using WhatsApp. It does work without granting access to contacts, but it seems I can't even assign a name to a number without the contacts permission, so thousands of messages later the contact is still a bare number. Really scummy behavior. I probably would have caved if I had a number of contacts. And no iPad app, wtf.

Re: Apple and Meta go to war over interoperability vs. privacy

#37

Post by crest »

oefrha wrote: post #10

The Reuters report on this is much more detailed: https://www.reuters.com/technology/apple-slams-metas-numerou... And yes, Meta isn’t denying requesting everything under the sun. Their only retort is Apple’s privacy concerns are anticompetitive excuses. Two things can be true: Apple is only protecting their own interests, and Meta is a terrible would-be guardian of all the data they’re requesting.

Apple shouldn't be allowed to lock down APIs between system components to give themselves a competitive advantage, but that doesn't mean Meta should be allowed decide if they're getting that access. Let Apple offer users the option: allow once, allow permanently, refuse, or fake empty responses without telling the app.

Re: Apple and Meta go to war over interoperability vs. privacy

#38

Post by oefrha »

JKCalhoun wrote: post #33
oefrha wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They certainly don’t. We’re talking about apps like Phone, Messages, Photos, Files and system stuff like app tracking (Screen Time etc.).

When you first set up an iPhone (and other hardware like AirPods, for example) you are asked whether to share anonymized usage data with Apple. Saying "No" at that screen turns off a whole swath of data collection. I wonder what specific examples you are aware of that are not disabled in this manner?

No one's talking about "anonymous usage data". The topic at question is primary data available to first party apps (even if they remain on device), often synced to iCloud and available to say, Siri. I'm sure I accepted a bunch of EULAs when turning on iCloud and Siri, but Facebook will argue they've shown you their EULA too. That's not "request permissions the same way third party apps do", and some of the data can't even be requested through normal permission prompts, which is why Meta is forcing Apple's hand with the EU stuff.

Re: Apple and Meta go to war over interoperability vs. privacy

#39

Post by paldepind2 »

tempodox wrote: post #14
oefrha wrote: post #10

The Reuters report on this is much more detailed: https://www.reuters.com/technology/apple-slams-metas-numerou... And yes, Meta isn’t denying requesting everything under the sun. Their only retort is Apple’s privacy concerns are anticompetitive excuses. Two things can be true: Apple is only protecting their own interests, and Meta is a terrible would-be guardian of all the data they’re requesting.

The rename from Facebook didn't change the base nature of that company. Their product is selling user data. All their other “products” are just suction pipes for hoovering up that data.

> All their other “products” are just suction pipes for hoovering up that data.

I don't think that's true for their VR/MR hardware. That's Meta's attempt to get a product that is _not_ like that, but which instead gets them in a position similar to where Google and Apple are for phones. I.e., where they own the platform and can profit off of that.

Re: Apple and Meta go to war over interoperability vs. privacy

#40

Post by [deleted] »

JKCalhoun wrote: post #33
oefrha wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They certainly don’t. We’re talking about apps like Phone, Messages, Photos, Files and system stuff like app tracking (Screen Time etc.).

When you first set up an iPhone (and other hardware like AirPods, for example) you are asked whether to share anonymized usage data with Apple. Saying "No" at that screen turns off a whole swath of data collection. I wonder what specific examples you are aware of that are not disabled in this manner?

[deleted]
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